Red Yeast Rice vs Statins

[Biologist]

Thanks, Deb. I HOPE some of my comments help more than they hurt. If I'm right part of the time, I'm happy. I like how Brooks put it:

"I'm still up and down - makes me &%@# nuts. Keep changing
my self-meds when things go south to see if that helps, but
that's only a knee-jerk reaction; I know. I keep thinking time
will be the best medicine. I certainly hope that's true. I just
have to remind myself now and then how awful I was feeling
this time last year when the weight of my own arms was more
than I could bear, and I perk up a bit. AND my family is very
supportive, THANK GOD!

Well, I'm off to my 'pharmacology lab' to start today's regimen."

--Brooks

That's me.

Anything I suggest should always be taken with a couple of shakers of salt. As you know, I use to recommend statins. Bummer. Uncle2Blade mentioned THE SCHWARZBEIN PRINCIPLE THE TRANSITION, by Diana Schwarzbein, M.D. On pursuing her website, I read a blurb where she says a lot of aerobic exercise can/will shorten your life. Bummer. I just got back from 2 miles on a machine and plan the same for tomorrow. Who knows?

I think the testosterone thing is a very good idea for me, and might be for others. I wish I could say that I thought of it. But I did not and might never have considered it. My doctor get unending credit for that one. I feel fortunate.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: I can affirm the truth of the low/no carb theory. It works. The body has to get carbs from someplace; if not the diet, then from stored fat. Problem is that usually means your protein intake will be extremely high and that combo can be tough on the kidneys. But, as I said, it works.

The egg thing... I haven't tried it yet but the suggested physics of this process tell me the solids and the shell must have separated a bit before that would work; so, letting the egg cool for a while or running the egg under cold water for a minute first would probably be advisable if you don't want to pop an eye out of it's socket.

OK, gotta go. The dog wants to take me for a walk ... good luck with the egg.

Regards,

Brooks

[adec]

I don't want to assist in hijacking this otherwise serious thread any further, but thought I would chime in here. Just realize excess DHEA could cause hirsutism, or excessive body hair growth, and exacerbate baldness and acne, due to an increase in DHT. More importantly, that extra DHT could increase chances for prostate cancer in men, and breast cancer in women. Anyway, an excess of male DHEA would get converted into estrogen, not testosterone. I'm talking about gynecomastia. I would definitely get hormone levels tested by a doctor based on age before supplementing.

Don't get me wrong, I do strongly believe in supplementing with DHEA, especially anyone over the age of forty. Women especially could benefit with an extra increase in testosterone. After our late twenties to early thirties DHEA levels start to slowly decline. The average healthy 25 year-old male's adrenals likely manufactures between 20-30mg of DHEA a day, the average 25 year-old female manufactures 10-15mg. Those are
the levels to be trying to reestablish in an advanced age. I don't think it's sensible to supplement with such high doses, even in the short term. Having too much is just as bad as having too little. We've been there already with statins.

Like Brooks, I also believe VERY strongly in taking breaks from supplementation, or in DHEA's case hormonal holidays... as Ray Sahelian so concisely puts it. Just don't expect it to be some sort of panacea. There was a recent trial reported in the New England Journal of Medicine showing DHEA supplementation had no effect on many important factors, including body composition and physical endurance. The benefits of both DHEA and melatonin supplementation are a lot more subtle than most realize.

Oh, and on the subject of super low carb diets, they unnecessarily deplete the body of glycogen. This ketosis can lead to significant muscle atrophy over time. In reference to statin damage, without carbohydrates CoQ10 cannot properly enter the Krebs cycle due to a decrease in oxaloacetic acid. Without oxaloacetic acid the body struggles to manufacture glucose, and fat oxidation decreases in the process. There are no free lunches.

[Biologist]

Hi, adec.

You bring up a good example of the other extreme where DHEA is concerned. The "conservative dosers." This debate is why people should research the matter and make their own best decissions, and perhaps do some experimenting. The higher dosage I have used recently were to bring my testosterone level up quickly, which it appears to have done prior to my starting on testosterone (see my prior post in this thread). For that reason I would tend to question your statement:

"Anyway, an excess of male DHEA would get
converted into estrogen, not testosterone."
-adec

Others here may be in the same boat or might like to run such a test as I have done to see if they start feeling better very quickly with such a trial. It could tell them they may be low on testosterone. But I agree that conversion rate results may be unpredictable. In my case, since I was feeling better so quickly, we can assume that estrogen conversion was likely minimal compared to testosterone conversion. But short of that, your post is a good counter balance for mine. BTW, I do not necessarily suggest that people continue at such a high dose as 100 mg. for long periods of time and may not myself. It may be good, it may not. In controlled placebo-based studies, well over 200 mg./day have been used for many months and of millions of users there has never been a recorded fatality regardless of the dose including over 1,000 mg per day (as I believe I remember reading). But the safest is no doub a lesser amount. May not be best, but certainly safest.

You mentioned Ray Sahelian. He appears to be a conservative dose guru. You can see from his biography page that he is heavily commercialized not only with his own supplement business but also with his representing the corporate media (who get their revenues from Big Pharma who cannot make a dime of DHEA and wish it would go away). Sorry for the long hyperlink here :



Don't mean to bashing him, but I may detect a bit of a conflict of interest, and therefore discount his "opinions" to some degree. Here's an example or two (which also hereby unhighjacks this thread with red yeast rice reentering the picture!) We see his is not big on statins here:

*http://www.raysahelian.com/statins.html

Stating: "However, I do dispute the fact that lowering cholesterol with statin drugs is a good thing."

However, he pushes his own red yeast rice brand here but neglects to mention that it is, in effect, a statin; while he does admit that is an inhibitor or HMG-CoA reductase (and is therefore a statin -- to you and me -- but not necessarily to his paying customers!) Here's his quote:

"Red yeast rice is a natural compound that supports
cholesterol wellness. This red yeast rice product has
mixed mevinolinic acid monacolins. These monacolins
inhibit the normal synthesis of cholesterol in the body
by binding to the cholesterol production enzyme
HMG-CoA reductase."

*http://www.raysahelian.com/redyeastrice.html

One other thing I noticed. He pushes his own brand of 5-HTP here over L-Tryptophan (as Brian recommends):

*http://www.raysahelian.com/5-htp.html

But he fails to discuss a recognized major concern with such supplementation as is found here (which is also why I quit using it some months ago):

*http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263607.html

BTW, L-Tryptophan has the added benefit of suppressing the desire for carbohydrates. Something I can use in my quest to lose another 10 pounds via the Dr Mike suggested, and Dr. Brooks endorsed, Low Carb diet I am doing this month. So far, so good!!

Biologist

[adec]

Good morning Biologist and it's your right to supplement as you choose. I wasn't presenting Dr. Ray's opinion, but merely my own from varied and extensive reading. Hormones are serious business, and an imbalance is certainly not something to take lightly. In that way the phrase "hormone holiday" is a catchy reminder, and puts recognition on many a sensible doctor and scientist's recommendations.

DHEA and DHEAS are indeed the most prevalent androgen in both men and women. The average human loses 1.5-2% DHEA every year after their early-thirties. Women also likely produce 30% less than men. I certainly believe in replenishing those natural youthful levels lost to age. Just like it's important advice to moderate blood sugar and cholesterol levels. These are important considerations.

However over the long term, overuse of DHEA -- or any hormone -- simply instructs the body to limit its own production, in essence creates an imbalance of estradiol in the body. This excess DHEA flooding the liver could also cause potential damage. Obviously men with a history of prostate cancer should have legitimate concerns about high-dose supplementation. There are just too many complicated questions without long-term answers.

I understand Dr. Regelson, whose book helped inflame the DHEA revolution, recommends 50mg every other day for men. Yeah, I probably too question this. Let's say we establish the average 50yo males' production of DHEA at 20mg daily, and at 70yo only 15mg daily. Then perhaps age-specific additive doses of 20mg and 30mg respectively every other day are in order. Or perhaps for 60yo women something in the order of 10-15mg DHEA every other day might be perfectly safe. In either gender, I definitely think it's important to get blood-work done for those trying to reestablish these levels -- perhaps somewhere in the range of 500 mcg/dL for men and 350mcg/dL for women. Otherwise, it's like trying to drive a car while blindfolded.

Yet in men, not just DHEA, but perhaps a balanced amount of pregnenolone and/or progesterone is what's needed to increase androgens, such as testosterone. More important than even DHEA, pregnenolone is the one true master hormone, the building block of all other hormones. A lack of cholesterol would more directly correlate with a lack of pregnenolone, moreso than DHEA.

And I'm not talking about synthetic DHEA or precursors made from yams, which are mostly ineffective. I'm talking about real DHEA, time-released or micronized, which would enter the bloodstream as DHEA instead of testosterone. This would be especially important for women to minimize androgenic side-effects. Yes, I feel we need to be instructive, but also more responsible for those desperately coming here looking for advice. Maybe the average visitor might not have the deepest reservoir of medical knowledge, and therefore is that much more impressionable.

I still vividly remember the urgency of being in those same life-or-death situation two years ago. I never take for granted the importance of this site, or the potential impact and consequence of my words. Especially in light of the Hippocratic oath's diminished importance in current medical science, it's imperative we rise to an even higher standard of safety and efficacy. Everything I suggest is from a safe, balanced (and hopefully educated) approach... slow and steady wins the race. Helping people (beyond science and medicine) better listen to their bodies, to their own intuition. Myself, I continue to learn throughout the entire process. Maybe I'm just from a younger generation, who realizes the more-is-better approach is what started this whole mess.

I would have taken this off-topic conversation to e-mail, but you don't have one listed. Just to give a better idea, I care about each and every person here, including you, or else you wouldn't have heard a peep from me. You can feel free to e-mail me though.

Take care.

[adec]

I just got a chance to read the link you provided about 5-HTP, and believe some of Dr. Bob's comments were overstated. I had recommended 5-HTP on the forum, and though it might warrant a comment.

5-HTP and tryptophan have both been proven to increase serotonin in the brain. Both 5-HTP and its metabolite tryptophan have the same capacity to allow some serotonin to remain in the blood and tissue. Serotonin itself doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier well due to being such a large molecule. There are some who believe 5-HTP crosses into the blood brain barrier easier, being as it's one step closer to serotonin. Both carry risk for serotonin syndrome in large doses.

My own personal feeling is 5-HTP is negligibly safer, being as it takes 14 times less of 5-HTP to increase serotonin over tryptophan. I wouldn't supplement with more than 25-50mg of 5-HTP, and 400-700mg of tryptophan. I would certainly recommend either one of these things over something like Ambien. Or at least, I believe this is the drug that was mentioned by a previous poster.

I don't see a problem alternating between both tryptophan and 5-HTP, and making sure to occasionally add a multi-B. Especially a vitamin B6 deficiency will limit serotonin production in the brain. I don't think co-administering with decaboxylase inhibitors is as safe or effective. I also believe in taking breaks or holidays. Same thing goes for melatonin.