Best statin to reduce arterial inflammation?

[Wisper]

Which statin is best to take for arterial inflammation and at what dose?
The details of my case follow.

Two years ago I read this web site and stopped taking statins.

At the moment, I get daily periods of several hours when I feel like I
am having a small-stroke. I am being tested for narrowing of some upper
chest arteries because my symptoms suggest insufficient blood flow to the brain.

In the meantime, I would like to take a statin to reduce any arterial inflammation.
The intention is to improve blood flow to my head so I can function better. When
my blood flow problems are diagnosed and treated, I will stop the statin.

I couldn't understand the technical info in Dr Gavelin's three books but the
key message for me seems to be this: statins are useful for reducing
arterial inflammation and can do this at much lower doses than normally prescribed
to lower cholesterol.

Can you suggest which statin is best to take for arterial inflammation and at what dose?

Thank you for any advice.

[Allen1]

Hi there Wisper,

non of us on the forum are doctors, we are mainly individuals that have been badly effected by taking Statins and are passing on our experiences plus what has helped to relieve some of the symptoms.

You really should see your GP or a specialist in this field and maybe ask about using baby aspirin (75mg) here in the UK for the inflammation, or if you do think Statins are the answer short term also discuss it with them.

Personally I would avoid the use of Statins even if my life depended on them, the side effects can make what time you have left a living nightmare, as often as not the symptoms creep up on you over time so you don't know what is causing them till its too late.

Maybe you could also ask about using something like a glyceryl trinitrate spray to open up the arteries on these occasions as used for Angina, a doctor is the person that would know the best coarse of treatment for your symptoms. There are also tablet form medication to open up the arteries and improve blood flow, that again is something for a doctor to prescribe.

I apologise for sounding so negative about the use of Statins but they are not that good anyway and certainly not worth the risk of potentially ruining your quality of life after using them. Please try other methods first and leave Statins as the very last option if everything else fails.

Take care and let us know what your doctor or specialist recommends.

All the best,
Allen.

[Wisper]

Allen1, Thank you for your reply. I too am in the UK.

My daily hours of severe confusion are very similar to mini-strokes. At those times
I can't operate my PC, I couldn't type this message or even walk in a straight line.

I stopped statins as soon as I read on this web site what effects they can have on
cognitive function but that didn't improve anything.

After very many months I found my states of severe confusion was linked to poor
blood flow to the head. The doctors are slow at investigating, so right now I need
ANYTHING which will keep me going.

I'm taking all the vasodilators I can. So I figure I might improve blood flow a tiny
bit more if I take a low dose statin to combat any inflammation in the arteries.

My doctors all believe the misleading idea that full dose statins are good, so I can't
get any good advice from them.

I recall some statins have worse side effects than others. Also some affect inflammation
more than others. But which ones? I think Lipitor was one of the worst.

Can anyone help steer me to choose the least bad statins? I could take 25% of the
standard dose.

[David Staup]

wisper,

if you read all the info on the site you will see 2 things that you should search for

1. in one article doc G states that all the antiinflamitory effect of statins occur at dosages of 5 mg or less

2. in another article another author talks about studies showing better results from fish oils (omega 3's) for anti-inflamitory effects.

and on the statins cause mitochondrial dysfunction front, one of the documented statin caused mitochondrial disorders is call MELAS.

the "S" stands for "stroke like episodes"

I would look at that possibility

[Allen1]

Hi there Wisper,

it has been around four years since I stopped taking Simvastatin and while there have been some improvements, there have also been many other problems that have arose. My main problem was the inability to think and remember peoples names or what I was doing or saying, I still have those problems after all this time although I have noticed that I can concentrate for short periods and manage to do some of the things I took for granted before Statins were involved. I still suffer from really bad mood swings often for trivial things that would have been laughed off in the past

What you have written in your reply sounds very much like the damage that taking Statins did to me, apparently the brain has its own Cholesterol supply which is essential to keep things running properly. Statins however can cross the blood brain barrier and interfere with that Cholesterol and cause the problems that I and many others have experienced, this may also be what is effecting you.

The above is a simplified version of the problem and cause but is basically what goes on. If your problems only started after taking Statins, then it would be a really bad idea to start taking any now as it will almost certainly cause the problems you have to get even worse, that's not meant to frighten you but people who have tried to tolerate Statins a second time around have often made their problems worse than they were.

I have put a link to Acetyl L-Carnitine bulk powder, its where I get mine from in the UK and it helps with the memory problem to a degree. You should also look into using Co Enzyme Q10 capsules as that also helped with a lot of the problems it was too expensive for me to keep using but it did actually help.


Here is a link to my first post and the help and advice that I got from some very good members at that time. (remove the asterisks)

**http://www.spacedoc.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=5434&highlight=#5434

**http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/acetyl_l_carnitine1

All the best,
Allen.

[Wisper]

David, thank you for the good info. My very first suspicion was my stroke-like
episodes were due to statins. I was impressed by Dr Gavelin's description of
his amazingly confused states but my states of confusion continue even after I
have stopped statins 2 years ago. I know Dr G has also described rare but
permanent effects of statins but I believe these effects are to do with nerve
and muscle pains.

I assure you that I have become VERY wary of statins and I got to really hate
them and how they were overhyped by the medical profession itself.

However my stroke-like states seem very likely to be due to circulation. I have
had a full set of neurological tests and the team diagnosed dementia but that
didn't account for the fluctuatons; then my baseline got better so that disproved
the diagnsois of dementia. Subsequently I went to see a cardiologist and he said
my heart and circulation were good so he did a scan of my neck arteries and they
were good. My chest pains (which were being ignored as muscle tension) suggest
the arterial narrowing is in the chest, so we are looking at that now.

One hour ago I couldn't type this message and was disoriented and confused. Now
I'm getting a moment of lucidity. I don't know how long it will last but I hope
it is for a few hours. I'm really desperate to maximise blood flow to help me
function until I can get a diagnosis.

Blood pressure medications have helped me get lucidity more than anything else.
I take BP meds which widen the arteries such as Amlodipine and Losartan. I think
the meds have achieved their maximum vasodilation effect although I ask my GP to
keep trying additional meds.

For the last year I have also been taking 1,500 mg Omega-3 (made up of 900mg EPA
plus 5600 mg DHA). Do you think this dose is sufficient?

Right now I figure that any small reduction in arterial inflammation would be
truly valuable. So I have come back to the dreaded statins.

Perhaps a low dose would help (such as 5mg you mentioned). Do you or anyone
else here know which statin is a reasonable one to try first?

[Wisper]

Hello Allen1, that's a really very interesting post of yours from
back in Sept 2007. The problems you describe seem neurological.
I have come to learn that there can be multiple compounding factors
when it comes to neurological problems and a particular set of
symptoms has been called Acute Confusional States (formerly called
"delirium"). These syndromes seem to be defined differently by different
neurology professionals. The literature describes multiple causes
(such as infection or electrolytes) and usually refers to several
causes being present at the same time.

I agree that statins could have been a cause. In fact, I had started
on simvastatin but then moved on to atorvastatin (Lipitor). I experienced
really terrible confused mental states and couldn't look after myself.
After a few years of this horrific decline, my family realised I wasn't
having episodes of some mental illness and started to look after me.

It was really hard to track down blood flow as a cause because the
symptoms were subtle and very hard for others to detect. They were
even harder for me to detect as I was going into very confused states.

I will definitely look into the L-carnitine you mention.

Personally I found that L-arginine can help but sometimes, when I am
really not well, it does not help enough. Nevertheless it definitely
DOES create an improvement. I later noticed that it was also helping
with my chest pains. I think the L-arginine improves the vascular
problem in the chest which then improves blood flow o the head but of
course it could also be improve blood flow within the head. My health
is too poor to work so I am on Income Support in the Uk and as L-arginine
can be expensive then I am very lucky that I can get it free from a
friend.

Best wishes - Wisper

-------

"Allen1" referred to
**http://www.spacedoc.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=5434&highlight=#5434

[Wisper]

GOT IT! .... I found what I was asking about in my original post.
For completeness I'll mention it here.

In Dr Gaveline's last book (Statin damage Crisis) there is a chapter
called "Anti-Inflammatory Alternatives To Statins". At the end of the
chapter he has a section addressed to the Highest Risk Person in which
he says that although it may be surprising he considers low dose statins
to be a rational part of his anti-inflammatory regime. I think that chapter
is an updated version of a chapter in his first book ("Statin Drugs Side
Effects") called "Statin Alternatives".

Dr G writes, "My personal choice would be Pravachol 5mg". He also says
if one of the other (stronger) statins is used then he would go for a 2.5mg
dose. I notice that the usual dose of Pravachol (pravastatin) is 40 mg, so
5 mg is relatively small. It's half the suggested starting dose of 10 mg.

(By the way. to keep this in context, the rest of the chapter recommends
Omegas 3 and 6, CoQ10, tocotrienol vitamin E, aged garlic extract,
vitamin D and red rice yeast.)

-Wisper

[Allen1]

Hi there Wisper,


You wrote :-

"By the way. to keep this in context, the rest of the chapter recommends
Omegas 3 and 6, CoQ10, tocotrienol vitamin E, aged garlic extract,
vitamin D and red rice yeast."


I haven't read the book but some of what you have written is terribly worry-some if the items mentioned were meant to be used together. Vitamin E and CoQ10 both use the same transport mechanism or receptors and should be taken at different times and red rice yeast is basically what Statins were engineered from and is in fact a Statin and has also caused serious side effects on people even on this forum.

You are really playing with fire if you attempt to use a statin even short term and even low dose especially as you know the problems that they caused you in the past. People who have done a Re-Challenge ie gone back on to Statins have often had their problems exasperated, this stuff is poison and I hope that you will leave it well alone, its not a miracle cure and it is extremely hazardous to your health.


All the best,
Allen.

[Wisper]

> ["Allen1" wrote]
>
> Hi there Wisper, You wrote :-
> "By the way. to keep this in context, the rest of the chapter recommends
> Omegas 3 and 6, CoQ10, tocotrienol vitamin E, aged garlic extract,
> vitamin D and red rice yeast."
> I haven't read the book but some of what you have written is terribly worry-some
> if the items mentioned were meant to be used together. [snip]


Hello Allen1, I can only accurately relate what was written in two of the books.
On balance I won't go ahead with the statins because my blood readings for
arterial inflammation do not seem high and at this stage I am not looking for a
long-term preventative reduction in inflammation but a significant reduction which
gives immediate relief of my symptoms. So I am not considering the statins any
longer at the moment.

As you say you haven't done so yet, it's worth reading at least one of
Dr Graveline's books. I have all three although I can't suggest a particular
one especially as a surprising amount gets repeated verbatim from one to another
and I'm not really sure which one gives the clearest point of view. The text
tends to be uneven as I suspect it did not benefit from an independent sub-editor.

BTW your posts and the experiences they describe are very interesting to read.
Some of it seems to overlap with me a lot.

At the moment, in my case, we are starting to zoom in on why mild chest pains
occur when I get moments of confusion and the hypotheisis is that there is
some arterial narrowing. (Perhaps in conjunction with some congenital variation
from the norm of the vascular anatomy. It seems arteries may not start or go
in the conventional places in a surprisingly large percentage of the
population.) In turn this suggests that my moments of lucidity may not be
as lucid as I had thought because any serious narrowing will always be present.

Like you I am in the UK and it has been useful (although it took a long time
to arrange) to have the neurologists have a close look and eliminate any
likely brain problems. The frustrating thing for me has been that the
cardiologists want to look only at the heart and are not much interested
in other arteries; the cardiologists add that if the symptoms are of episodic
confusionI should see a neurologist. Annoyingly the neurologist says he doesn'
t deal with blood flow problems which arise outside the head.

I toyed with the idea of seeing specialists in stroke medicine because what I
have seems to be a form of haemodynamic stroke (as opposed to the conventional
embolic type of stroke) but they don't really think it is their speciality to
look further into the chest pains.

Sigh. Nothing is properly diagnosed yet but I have had over 10 years of
significant symptoms so far. I am 55 now and I think you are a good 15 years
ahead of me and important parts of your symptoms are different to mine. However
there is always the possibility of several illnesses superimposed upon one
another, so nothing suspicious in our presentation should ever be overlooked.

-Wisper

[Allen1]

Hi there Wisper,

I am pleased to read that you are not going to use any statins. I am also 55 and it had taken around 3 years since stopping Statins for me to be able to almost hold a conversation or read an item and take it in (that is on a good day). The Acetyl L-Carnitine helps with the thinking side of the problems and Co Enzyme Q10 helped with the physical side especially with heart rhythm and it made the beats sort of softer instead of rigid, my assumption is that it helped the heart to become more flexible as it was meant to be pre Statin.

For a long time, I thought that my inability to concentrate or even remember what I was doing etc, was due to lack of oxygen because of the problems I was having with my breathing. As it happens all the tests for low blood oxygen levels were fine but the problems still exist both physically and mentally. I must admit though that most days I feel human again but if I try to have a chat even with my daughter etc, the conversation doesn't last more than a few words before I get stuck again, this is an improvement compared to how I was 4 or 5 years ago though.

The Co Enzyme Q10 may help with your chest pains by the method I mentioned above, I used the cheap ones from ASDA, I think they were 30mg and took 3 or 4 a day and they seemed to make a difference as I mentioned. Most people take up to 200mg 4 times a day of the expensive stuff though which was way out of my price range.

I wish that our symptoms would not fluctuate the way they do, it would make a proper diagnoses much easier if they were constant, although it is nice to have some sort of normality even if it is short lived. Another thing that I find is that it is impossible to write or talk or do anything that requires attention if there is any distraction like a radio playing, TV on or just kids being kids but that might just be me getting older.

All the best,
Allen.

[Wisper]

Hello Allen1. The symptoms you mention seem to be connected to INATTENTION.
On the other hand, if I recall the various descriptions of statin side effects
correctly they involve memory rather than attention. (Of course, if you
are inattentive then you can't properly understand what you are sensing
and consequently can't form new memories from what you are unable to
perceive. IYSWIM.)

I notice that you write clearly, so I would guess that your moments of
inattention are not always present but instead they fluctuate. Similarly, I
couldn't write this message if I was not in a lucid moment

Understanding the above simple points was key to untangling the various
misunderstandings about my difficulties. Fluctuating attention is a
hallmark of Acute Confusional States (a.k.a. clinical delirium).

I was able to compensate for the periods of severe inattention by "brain
enhancing" products and initially this misled me into believing the
problem was within the brain. The neurologists started believing this too
because the symptoms were so severe but they couldn't understand how
I was able to invoke some improvement with alcohol or L-arginine.


Have you taken a close look on the Net at some of the descriptions of
Acute Confusional States. YMMV but maybe they will be of some interest
to you.

-Wisper

[David Staup]

If you only remember memory problems fron what you've read then you haven't read enough!
cognative issues affect MANY statin victims...search this site for the term "brain fog" you will get many hits from the forum

then look at the following articles:

http://www.spacedoc.com/lipitor.htm

http://www.spacedoc.com/forgetfullness_ ... tatins.htm

http://www.spacedoc.com/statin_side_effects

then read all the articles on statins and mitochondria on this page

http://www.spacedoc.com/statin_side_effects


each of the above is proof enough for me that you have not done sufficient research nor have you listened to anyone here!
I'm sorry to be so blunt but you really shouldn't post your beliefs here without doing the research as it may affect others!

[Allen1]

Hi there Wisper,

What David has pointed to in the links provided is closer to the mark. What I was referring to was basically the distractions would cause a sensory overload and make it impossible to latch on to anything I was about to say, write or do. This is especially a problem with sound in my case although visual effects also interfere with my inability to concentrate on what I am meant to be doing.

The problems are very much like the brain fog that still lingers and this is exasperated by tiredness and things likes distractions while trying to do something that involves a bit of thinking.

I do like having a radio playing in the background or listening to some CDs and the likes, but if I have to do anything like write this post, then all the background distractions have got to go or I cannot put two words together and make any sense. I wasn't like this before taking Statins but here I am and many others too in a predicament that no-one should be subjected to, all for the sake of making a lot of money out of a myth.


Nice post David,

some pretty good links there too

[Wisper]

Hello David, thank you for the reply and your useful links.

I recall relating very closely to the symptoms Dr G wrote about and
you are quite right to remind me that they include more than just
memory. No offence taken.

In fact, I personally related very closely to the symptoms Dr G
described and as a result I developed a strong dislike of statins. I
stopped taking statins a couple of years ago.

For some time I didn't look any further for cause of my states of
confusion. The mistake I made was thinking my symptoms were due
only to statins. Now that I look back I see there were probably several
compounding factors at work creating my states of confusion. It's too
late to look back with any accuracy in my case so all I can do is surmise
that my statins may have been a factor.

Certainly we noticed I started going into confused states just as I begun
statins. However perhaps the statins were the last straw in may case
rather than the primary cause. I guess we may never know.

Sad to say my memory is not what it should be and I don't recall if Dr
G has attributed problems of ATTENTION to statins. I have seen that
my problems are characterised by difficutly with attention and
consciousness (as well as other cognitive problems).

I have come to understand that attention can be an important
differentiator between various neurological conditions. For example,
in patients with dementia attention is usually preserved until the
dementia is significantly advanced and even then inattentiveness
maynot be very evident. It doesn't help that Dr G seems to include a
report on Post Cortical Atrophy (a rare form of dementia) in his
citations of the ill effects reported to him of statins in #8 of:

http://www.spacedoc.com/forgetfullness_ ... tatins.htm

[Allen1]

Hi there Wisper,

as you mentioned Statins may not have been the only cause of your problems, it has been mentioned a lot of times in the forums that the Statins could also be triggering an underlying problem that may have never surfaced if we had not taken Statins and depleted our bodies by the method Statins use. That can be physical or mental problems or a mixture of both.

It is insane to be giving someone like myself a Statin drug after having an heart attack, yet here we are happily being prescribed a concoction that will rob our bodies of the very things it needs to survive. Historians will look back at this practise and say "Boy they sure were stupid back in those days" and that is putting it politely.

Anyhow take a look at askapatient for some real peoples views and symptoms, the site keeps updating every now and then but here is the current page for Zocor which was my poison.

*http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=19766&name=ZOCOR

[David Staup]

Hey Wisper,

I'm glad that you took n offence! sometimes I get to fatigued and agression is one of the first signs for me to slow down.

As to attention problems fortunately for me that is one of the symptoms that only arrise when I have fallem much further down the curve! I can recount a particularly disturbing set of episodes as follows

just before I quit work I would be driving between assignments and loose my ability to pay attention to all of the "things" going on around me on the highway and would literally have to take mental control at a reduced level.

when I recounted these episodes to my neuropsycologist I described it as much like tunnel vision except I still had full vision but could only process that which was directly in front of me....I believe it was less than a month after those episodes that I quit work and applied for disability.

[David Staup]

After reading my post above I can see the subtle signs of mental fatigue which means that I have not fully recovered.

chuckle