just the facts

[David Staup]

An excellant article:

"http://lungcancerdrugs.blognub.com/lung-cancer-drugs/cholesterol-does-not-cause-heart-attacks-low-levels-linked-to-strokes-cancer-and-infection/

[lars999]

Hi David!!

Nice article, nice text, nice points, nice writting, no references, no author's names, no affiliation. Why should I take this seriously?

Thanks,
Lars

[David Staup]

Lars
you can take it anyway you choose.
it is meant (by me) as a clearly stated summary of the situation that I can point others toward as a starting point. anyone who then becomes skeptical enough can either do thier own research or, as is more common I can provide many references specific to each point. As one who has done some course design and teaching I KNOW that beginning with simple general concepts before advancing to the specific and complex is essential in the process of guiding someone else to thier own understanding...understanding is not something you can give to another, everyone must seek thier own.

David

[lars999]

David,

I look forward to references, at least as much to pass on to friends, etc. as for my own use. I am not the one that needs to be convienced, at least in this case. Clearly, some references, at least, are in your previous, excellent post on essentially same subject.

I live in a world full of "data hogs" -- the Univ of Kanazawa publication in Circulation in 2002 is an excellent example of suitable reference -- thank you for providing it. Swedish Simvastatin Study, is another. Most lipid intervention studies are PIAs, as you and many of us know first hand. Thanks to authors like Malcom Kendricks and Uffe Ravenskov, we have nice guide to which such papers are worth bothering with.

I do look up lots of references, lots. It is nearly always time consuming, especially if one wants full version of publication, WITH full data.

Lars

[Allen1]

Hi there David,

that was a great link, this sort of easy to read and descriptive type of article is exactly what I would have liked to have come across when I was looking for the cause of my problems.
Remember I had and still have memory issues as well as physical ones, so this is the level that I can relate to in reading information most days (at least without reading up all the references etc).

Not so long ago, I couldn't follow a lot of what was being talked about when all the medical terminology or abbreviations were being used, I would think that there are a lot of people just like myself who would also struggle with over complicated terminology since taking statins, plain speaking is always good to see as in that article



Hi there Lars,

just like yourself David does a lot of research and follows references on these matters. There were many postings here that would make a doctor struggle to understand with all the correct terminology and many abbreviation that people like myself would have to keep googling to see what the heck was being talked about. Thankfully David and others toned it down so that people like myself could follow what was being discussed, any references that were needed could be found in most of their links to the subject.

The information provided in the above link is essentially an easy to digest version of many of the subjects that have been published and some of which have even been discussed here in the past. I think anyone reading it will see in plain English that there is something very wrong and hopefully look even further for more information, with a bit of luck they will come across site like this one and get assistance if they require it.

It is good to know that many of the folk here actually know the ins and outs of these subjects, it is also good that the information that has been learned is also put into plain English for easy reading for the rest of us Bloody Statins and ongoing problems!

All the best and Happy New Year in a few hours time,
Allen

[lars999]

Hello Allen!!

Thank you for providing one of several valid perspectives about level of writing. In spirit of open and free discussion, I would like to present a different perspective, one that specifically addresses some of the common problems with Internet and those doctors that destroyed our lives with statins.

I will start with listing a few things I think we all can agree on as common to our experiences with adverse side effects of statins.

1) Most (nearly all?) doctors respond very negatively to any mention of what we have learned about adverse side effects of statins via webbsites on Internet.

2) We all were egregiously lied to by our doctors about the nasty side effects of statins.

3) We can access generally excellent medical webbsites, Mayo Clinic for example, and find the same excessively rosy descriptions of statins that we all heard from our doctors. (Yes, pOps recently provided the first good evidence that Mayo is finally becoming more realistic about statins.)

4) Perhaps the two most readily accepted webbsites about adverese side effects of statins is *www.SpaceDoc.net and *www.stopped_our_statins.com. At least I find this when I send information to other statin victims.

5) Anyone on Internet for long learns there is a wide range of reliability of webbsites, from excellent, reliable sites to total fakes. Sooner or later, we each develop some ability to judge reliability of sites.

Now, here is my perspective:

The newby statin victim needs accurate information that can be quickly determined to come from a knowledgable source. David's cited a webbsite containing accurate, well written, brief statement. However, it manages to look like very dubious information on a very dubious webbsite -- no author noted, a webbsite that provides no information as to its origin or owner, no references for information stated, position stated is hugely at odds with doctors current refrain about statins. In short, it hardly qualifies as a verifiably reliable source of much needed information for a newby statin victim.

Dr. Duane Graveline's newletters provided me the initial, verifiable information I needed to decide to stop Lipitor immediately. Dr. Beatrice Golumb's *www.stop_our_statins.com and San Diego Statin Effects Study backed that decision solidly. Others, Drs. Malcom Hendricks and Uffe Ravenskov in particular, provided much additional, verifiable information.

In closing, I have found David's other postings to be a great source of excellent references and insights. This one falls well short of that standard.

Regards,
Lars

[David Staup]

Lars,
this is a free country and you can express your opinions, of course, however well or poorly thought out. you will have to imagine, though, that those of us further up the learning curve hold many of those opinions in high esteem. tow comments about your posts:

! common knowlege in this group. for example ubiquinol vs ubiquinone....old subject here see:

http://www.spacedoc.net/peter_langsjoen

and if you use the "search the spacedoc site" function you will find Many many discussions and all of your revelations already revealed...


and finally my posts are not ment for you or any one specific person at all.
it troubles me not at all that you are unsatisfied....if you hadn't stated your age I would have sworn that you are from the ME generation!

get over it!

Dave

[lars999]

Hi David!!

Got over what??

Revalations from ME!?!? WOW! Thanks for compliment!! In all modesty, I must say that I have only been repeating what I learned from Graveline, Kindricks, Ravenskov, McCully, Golumb, MyHill, etc., etc., etc., including many of references you cited.

I learned about Drs. Per and Peter Långsjöen about 7 months ago, from Duane's webbsite. That is exactly where I learned about Ubiquinol. Excellent information!! However, I find that knowledge is not widely known or understood, even with medical professionals. I even give copies of Långsjöen's publications to cardiologists and GPs.

Ubiquinol and Acetyl-L-Carnitine have been two most demonstratably useful suppliments in my reducing Lipitor's adverse effects. I first learned about both from Duane's newsletters. Actually, I think I have read all of his newsletters.

Have a wonderfun New Years!!

Lars

[cjbrooksjc]

I've no wish to join in this discussion except to point out that "Stopped Our Statins" is a website developed and sustained by Fran, (SOS group Owner -click on Memberlist) one of our own forum members, and not Dr. Golomb.

Brooks

[lars999]

Brooks,

Thanks for correction. Someday I should take time to trace the origin and evolution of the various, main anti-statin, anti-cholesterol scam webbsites.

Do you know what is relationship of Fran to Beatrice Golumb and here group?

Thanks again,
Lars

[cjbrooksjc]

Lars: I know of none save the same association some of us have with Dr. Golomb. As an example, I have spoken with her by phone, sent money as a contribution, and read her reports. I think Fran (SOS group owner) has as well. Fran has a loved one who is statin affected.
There is at least one individual on the site who has actually been counseled and treated by Dr. Golomb. You can use the Search function and enter "Golomb" to find this person's entries. It will require a bit of patience.
You can also pull up the Memberlist, select a member, and click on "Show all posts by this individual" (or something like that), and you can look at all posts by that person.

Best,

Brooks