ubquinone v. ubiquinol

[Allen1]

Hi there Brooks,

if its going an orangy colour then it does sound/look like it is becoming oxidized, it should be a whitish or yellow colour according to Dr Mercola and if you are paying for an expensive product, you definitely expect it to be fresh and the genuine thing.

I rushed the other posts in an effort to save you from sending any emails just in case there was an error, it does look like there were no errors if your stuff is turning orange though.

All the best,
Allen :)

[sylviak]

1. Ubiquinone is yellow in colour while ubiquinol is milky white (*http://www.zmc-usa.com/docs/CoQ10_Facts_or_Fabrications.pdf)
2) According to Mercola, Reduced CoQ10 is white/yellow oxidized CoQ10 is orange
(*Reduced CoQ10 is white/yellow oxidized CoQ10 is orange
3) According to Dr. Passwater, Ubiquinol is white/gray compound whereas ubiquinone is yellow/orange (*http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/Q-10%20Basics.htm)

I checked another source which negates what Mercola said. If it is light yellow in colour, it is COQ10.

We need to look further into this.

[Allen1]

Hi there sylviak,

[quote]I checked another source which negates what Mercola said. If it is light yellow in colour, it is COQ10.[/quote]

Well that is true but both Ubiquinol and Ubiquinone are both forms of COQ10, and maybe they should have been named COQ10-1 and COQ10-2 or something along those lines for clarity as the constant name usage of COQ10 then Ubiquinone or Ubiquinol then Enhanced or Normal then reduced or oxidized is nothing more than confusing to everyone (the experts and advertisers need a good kick where it hurts for this one).

To be honest, I don't know each individual manufacturers processing method, slight changes in colour or texture etc could be the way their product is manufactured, I highly doubt if two different manufactures processes are identical unless they share the same technology and patent/formula to make an exact copy, even then all it would take in this situation is an exposure to air to make a difference in the process and colour.

It looks like there are more experts out there that just as with statins tend to be experts on what someone else mentioned, because they are meant to be experts, we all believe their explanations until once again everything we read or see is in conflict to what we were told. This is NOT intended/meant for anyone here it IS intended for the experts who keep everything in a complete state of confusion by using several names for the same thing and not keeping up with new techniques etc.

I enjoyed reading the (*http://www.zmc-usa.com/docs/CoQ10_Facts_or_Fabrications.pdf) in your post, great find but as I mentioned with all the conflicting information from the experts (and possibly newer methods of processing since 2007), who do you rely on for an accurate up to date answer?

Thanks also for some great bits of information (loads really) in some of your other posts

All the best,
Allen

[sylviak]

My theory is that the COQH /ubiquinol is white/ gray in colour. When the process of oxidation begins, the colour starts to turn from white to light yellow and finally to orange/ yellow colour.
I can see it from the NSI ubiquinol capsule because the liquid inside is light yellow but around it, I can see solid orange particles similar to those found in ubiquinone.
This makes it nescessary for us to check the contents and to make sure that the manufacturers comply with their label claims.
After all, it is our health that is affected. It is bad enough that we have to suffer from the statin drug poisoning and then to find out that we are being short changed by the manufacturers of the most important "cure" to reverse this poisoning.

[cjbrooksjc]

No more guessing necessary. A picture is worth a thousand words:

**http://www.kaneka.co.jp/kaneka-e/business/life02.html#qh

Brooks

[sylviak]

I checked with Vitacost and was told that COQH is pale yellow. NSI said it is either pale yellow or white and will send an email to confirm.

[cjbrooksjc]

Sylvia:
I ordered a short supply form both Mercola and NSI. We'll see what they look like when they arrive. I DID request 2-day UPS shipping.

I got a reply from EPIC4HEALTH. They told me to return the supply so they could test it and to request a refund. I sent them the Kaneka link to the images of QuinoNE/OL.

If NSI sends me something white or white/yellow, I'm probably going to change my supplier. I have always had good luck with NSI products. I don't have any history with Mercola.

Brooks

[gotts1936]

I know everyone on the website is going to get angry a me, but after over two years on this web site I am very frustrated. It seems all we do is debate supplement usage.

Everytime some doctor or supplement company advertises a new or enhanced supplement we spend months debating its positives and negatives.

Supplements only mask our problems. There are a number of studies which identify how statins have damaged of mitochondria pathways. Lets spend our time finding out how to repair the damage and get on with our lifes.

I hope we do not have to many drug rep's on this website. Please forgive me for being so negative.

gotts

[David Staup]

Gotts,

I think we all understand your frustration :-(

however I think also that we all are searching for word of that therapy that would the damage done to us and suspect this forum would be the first place we would come to tell the world

mitochondrial damage is a malady on its own and the people suffering from it are in the same boat as we are, hard to find a doctor who knows and will order the tests for diagnosis, years of very expensive procedures that show nothing, etc. etc . they are in the same bost as we except there are some places they can now go for diagnosis. still they are left with suppliments to mitigate symptoms even after diagnosis.

I follow thier group on yahoo hoping to see something that will help us and so far the only thing I see is that the clinics that will test for this may be willing to test some of us. since I don;t have insurance I cannot but maybe you can

"mitoldies@yahoogroups.com"

screw the drug reps
David

[gotts1936]

David, thanks for your response, but it is a typical, no nonsense, response. I do not care about old people, who have a problem with Mitochondrial damaged who have not been on a statin drug. My only concern is as a 72 years old individual, me, who was healthy as a stud horse who was talked into taking Lovastatin to correct his so-called high cholesterol problems.
There are solutions out there, but we have to demand the medical professional find it.
And, as far as, the drug reps are concern, I believe we have some on this website.
gotts

[David Staup]

honestly Gotts if you have any ideas on how to force the medical community to fix this I'm all ears...considering they won't admit there is a problem I won't hold my breath.

as for the mitooldies the name is only to denote those with adult onset mostly they are in thier 40s or 50's there is a growing number of kids with the problem and that group is getting more attention in the research than we are..if there is a cure found it will most likely be from that research rather than from anything being done for us statin sufferers and who knows many of those adult onset mitoes might be statin damaged and not know it was the statins???

I wish with all my heart that something could be found to fix everyone but know that wishing something were so does very little to help....from our situation demanding does even less.



I was asked by a church member if they could pray for me in this ...I said yes pray that I could find a way to save as many others as possible and that would include we who are already victims

as for the drug reps if any again screw em who cares what they do here it can't hurt us any more

David

[sylviak]

A good place to look for possible cures would be the WIPO website.

If you browse through the WIPO website, there are several patent applications submitted to diagnose myopathy or to treat its side effects.
*http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2007144467
*http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006102788
*http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2001054648

Of course,we can request a list of which patent applications were approved.

[Allen1]

Hi there Gotts,

I sincerely doubt if any of the usual posters on this site are drug reps. I wouldn't be surprised however if we had frequent visits from some to keep an eye on how safe their own backsides are and possibly be looking for some way to worm out of trouble when the proverbial hits the fan.

Most of the advice that is freely given here is from people who just like yourself, have been seriously affected by statins. Those very same people are trying to find a means to make their life just a bit less uncomfortable, there is no magic cure for all the variations of the problems that we all face. I am more than happy to have followed advice on Co-Q10 and L-Carnitine and other supplements from people who have used them and found what works and the cheapest way to acquire them.

The only reason that folk are taking so many supplements is because they were damaged by statins and can no longer produce their own various compounds due to that damage, to make the most of things other vitamins were also found to be needed to assist uptake etc.

NO ONE here wants to be forever forking out money on pills and potions just to make life a little more comfortable, for many of us though, it is the only way to get some relief if we are lucky.

We are all pretty sick of being left in the state that we are in and nothing being done about it. In a perfect world this wouldn't be happening, this world however is not perfect and corruption is rife, as long as there is money involved, then people will only hear what they want to hear.

Unless we acquire several $million to fight or someone high up in the government takes on the fight then nothing will happen until the money stops flowing or all the doctors say enough is enough.

[gotts1936]

Hi David, Sylviak and Allen, I want to thank all of you for your responses and allowing me to vent without dumping on me. I apologize. It seems like every two months I get very frustrated and at 72 years old I really do not need the stress.

I was frustrated because, after almost three years of putting up with statin damage, I finally went to see a neurologist. He totally ignored everything I said and told me my primary doctor thinks I have myopathy, but he disagrees. He has three test he thinks I should take. Electromyography, MRI and, if they are negative, a muscle biopsy.

It appears he does believe I am in pain. Yes, I showed him my legs. one with a calf muscle and one without a calf muscle. Also, excessive buildup of fiberous fat and tissue on my left leg and around both knee caps ( peudohyperthrophy ).

When they look at your deformed legs and still deny the possibility of statin damage, it is scary.

gotts

P.S I have had the electromyography. I will not know results until next week. I will update. Thanks to all.

[Allen1]

Hi there Gotts,

letting off a bit of steam now and then is a good thing especially in a place like this amongst people who know something about the pain and frustration that you are going through. Keeping it all in just makes a really bad situation a lot worse and if we went outside and blew our stack then people would think we have lost the plot because they are not in the same situation. It is truly amazing how so many doctors and specialists still miss the link between the damage that they see on a daily basis and statin drugs, especially when so many patients are inquiring about it.

Apart from being overweight and a few scars, I don't look like there is anything wrong with me unless I attempt to do something and very quickly loose all strength and have to lay down. From my experience people/doctors thought that I was taking the P*** but they have seen me on the occasional really bad day and now know just how bad things are, those really bad days seem to be getting more frequent too.

I find it shocking that you have physical evidence to show the damage yet the doctors still do not see what is under their very noses, things can be bad here in the UK too but I don't think any doctor here would dismiss something as physically obvious as what has happened to your legs without at least looking into the possibilities of a connection first.

All the best Gotts, and you know this is the best place to relieve the pent up frustration, I was tempted to get a punch bag until I realized that I just don't have the stamina to hit the blooming thing

Catch you Later,
Allen

[sylviak]

Dear Gotts,
We feel your frustrations , sense of hopelessness and anger at the indifference and incompetence of many doctors. They prescribe statins and yet, they do not know how to administer it nor reverse the side effects. Worse, they even ignore the side effects!
What seems more frustrating is the fact that we take the supplements and our condition remains the same - sometimes improving and then new (or the same) symptoms arise.
I am grateful for this forum as I have benefited from some useful information.
I'm going to a neurologist tomorrow and inquire what tests are needed. So far, I've had a CK test done to determine if I had a muscle damage. I've also had an EKG, ultra sound and urine tests for kidney and liver, as well as a Vitamin D test.
I will let you know what further tests are needed.

In the meantime, I have contacted an associate professor (medicine), practicing doctor and member of THINCS. He is interested in meeting( corresponding ) with statin victims. I am thinking of asking him to make a Research paper based on our reports and publishing it in a top-ranked journal. Based on this report and others conducted by the scientific community, we can make a policy statement and a petition.

I still think that we should organise ourselves into a statin-damaged organisation ( we need to be organised if we want to force the authorithies to listen to us) and put up a website where there will be organised sections- supplements, tests, doctors,symptoms , scientific papers etc.

We don't need millions of dollars to create public awareness and move the scientific community to find a cure to reverse the side effects. But we need to be a strong force.

[sylviak]

A useful article to show or tell the doctors.

*http://www.medwelljournals.com/fulltext/tc/2007/24-26.pdf

[David Staup]

Gotts,
There is no reason to apologize here - we all understand the frustrations, the need to ocaisonally vent, and most of us have been there done that I for one plead guilty as charged

If you didn't live so darned far away I'd say lets do lunch...Brooks and I have lunch every couple of months and talk and compare notes for hours...it helps me a bunch. I think you need a hug.... metaphorically speaking of course You ever get to texas you have a place to stay here.
wouldn't it be great if we could all get together?

Sylviak,
two things: I'm sure you're aware that many/most of those with myopothies associated with statin damage show normal or only slightly elevated CK results
and if the ultrasound was ordered to diagnose kidney blockage due to Rhabdomyolysis (muscle cell debris in the tubuoles (sp?)) it won't show up... the contrast mechanism of the ultrasound requires a density difference to produce the signal and the difference between muscle debris and kidney cells is miniscule at best... better to request / demand an older test where dye is injected and flouroscopy is used to monitor its passage through the kidney... brain fog has blocked the name of that test for now.. but it will come to me eventually, I do remember it's a two letter acronym

I for one would volunteer to correspond with the thinks guy if he's interested you can forward my email address

David

[sylviak]

I'll send you his private email as I do not want him to get spam mails and an avalance of emails from drug companies etc.
We need to encourage pharmaceutical companies (those who do not produce statin drugs), universities and medical research center's to conduct studies on how to reverse the damage. For universities, they would need to get fundings. The EU has 4 billion allotted for research including medical research .The European Medical Research Council has even asked for doubling of funds.

[cjbrooksjc]

MERCOLA Ubiquinol. I rec'd the Mercola UBQ today, and, as promised, it is not oxidized. It is an off white color with v. little or no yellow observed. I'll let you know when I get the NSI version.

Brooks