Sounds definitely only fit for the bin Ray. I'm currently taking a mixture of L-C and L-AC. Mixing them together in the same jar has resulted in a compacted congealed mass from which I must scrape each dose.
One of them, at least, must be deliquescent.
Brian.
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Carnitine or Acetyl-L-Carnitine?
45 posts
• Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
by Biologist » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:57 pm
I have wondered if it would work to just mix up a gallon jug of water with carnitine for the refrigerator and takes sips throughout the day, but I do not know if the molecule would remain sound. Probably would, but I just do not know. If it tasted exactly the same after a week or two, that would still not be definitive. I may try it anyway with a coke bottle sized bottle.
Ray, the heart has more testosterone receptors for its cells than any other organ of the body. At your age, your levels are most likely very low as they drop off starting in in the late thirties. I have little doubt that testosterone replacement, under the supervision of a competent doctor, would be of major benefit to you. I have no idea what the situation is like in Great Britian though regarding getting diagnosed and treated. Something for you to look into also, Brian.
This book is excellent:
*http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Syndrome-Critical-Sexuality-Reversing-Menopause/dp/087131858X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206053270&sr=8-1
Biologist
Ray, the heart has more testosterone receptors for its cells than any other organ of the body. At your age, your levels are most likely very low as they drop off starting in in the late thirties. I have little doubt that testosterone replacement, under the supervision of a competent doctor, would be of major benefit to you. I have no idea what the situation is like in Great Britian though regarding getting diagnosed and treated. Something for you to look into also, Brian.
This book is excellent:
*http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Syndrome-Critical-Sexuality-Reversing-Menopause/dp/087131858X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206053270&sr=8-1
Biologist
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by cjbrooksjc » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:35 pm
Here's a couple of links on DHEA (Biologist, I think you were/are taking this?) and it's use as a testosterone booster. Interesting, if nothing else, FWIW...
Brooks
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by cjbrooksjc » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:17 pm
Sorry, forgot to include the links (link, actually):
**http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/pro-hormones/DHEA-supplement-information.htm
Brooks
**http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/pro-hormones/DHEA-supplement-information.htm
Brooks
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by Biologist » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:40 pm
Brooks,
I read the text of your hyperlink but did not study the site very much. While it verifies what I wrote some months ago that some studies have been done using very high doses of DHEA (so thanks for demonstrating that fact), I was not real impressed with their presentation partly because it may leave the impression that doses that high are common and/or acceptable. I think they may be a bit irresponsible on that matter, but I am no expert on DHEA. I am currently taking 25 mg but took 100 mg per day for a month or so as an experiment (which worked, as hypothsised, to double my testosterone levels as measured by testing -- something that I might be continuing if it were not for my TRT). Here is one of the obvious things that the author of that text did not mention, and it is a big deal: It has been known for years that DHEA WILL raise the testosterone levels of those with very low levels, but not so for healthy young men (e.g., the college students used in each of the studies). So, ironically, both of the studies (with their contradictory results, no less) are meaningless right from the start, which he later somewhat states (while not specifically mentioning the increased testosterone levels found in the older men, only that there was a subjective improvement in their sense of well-being). Also the author speaks of "andro" as if it were a good alternative. Andro has not been available to the public without a prescription for several years now. In short, there are much better URLs available on DHEA. A give away of his slackness is his third sentence in his presentation where there is a major glaring typo which he did not review enough to catch. I would cut and paste it here, but for some reason it will not cooperate. Thanks for posting it anyway just to verify that such studies on incredibly high doses of DHEA have been done in the past wIth no apparent harm -- don't try this with other hormones though! DHEA is recognized to be a bit of an enigma among human hormones. It's exact role has not been nailed down. BTW, the testosterone that it can convert to is never in the bloodstream as testosterone. The conversion form DHEA happens INSIDE the cells on a limited basis. How does blood or saliva testosterone levels increase then? Probably because more testosterone supplies are able to remain in the blood because some of the cells have converted DHEA and do not need to pull it from circulation.
If one suspects low testosterone levels, which is a REAL GOOD bet for statin victims (particularly those who have not completely recovered inside a year), I would recommend doing two saliva tests ordered from one of the major online supplement suppliers. Initially, one would want to order a test for TOTAL TESTOSTERONE and one for ESTRADIOL (E2). Generally they are about $50 per test. You spit in a test tube they send you and then mail it to them. They test it and send (e.g., email) you the results with their comments/diagnosis -- you will be able to compare your results to the standard averages for "healthy" men your age. These two tests are a good indicator of whether you need to look further, and it is enough evidence on its own to get the attention of even a general practitioner. (But run, don't walk from any GP, they're dangerous, as are most urologists and endocrinologists, as I will probably explain in a later post.) For those interested, after reading the book I mentioned above, read the two hyperlinks found here:
*http://www.allthingsmale.com/index.htm
Reports written and published by Dr. Crisler:
1) TRT: A Recipe for Success
2) HCG Update
If one does have low levels, there is MUCH advantage (i.e., health and quality of life) on getting it up. And it does not have to happen with exogenous testosterone for many men. While Dr. Crisler might seem to disagree somewhat (while not really), I would suggest the first thing to try would be very small doses of Arimidex (to get estrodiol/estrogen down and the ratio improved with existing testosterone) along with subcutaneous HCG (mimicking the brain's chemical signal to get the "testosterone factories" working on their own). Keep in mind that "the factories" are generally fine, it is the brain signals (from the pituitary gland damaged by statins) that are not being sent often enough and strong enough in the case for most men and particularly true I suspect for statin damaged men. That was the case for me. Stains are hell on the testosterone system, which is bad enough on its own, but this also prevents the repairing of other statin damage since testosterone/androgen levels are now deficient. (Wonder why they never told us this? Maybe the same reason they never told us that they are deadly with most or all antibiotics -- who in their right mind would buy them then?! Good business decision, I guess.)
He recommends Androgel if one is to start true TRT. That's fine, but better test often right after starting as it can raise your levels DHT levels more than other methods for TRT (including the above one I cite with the HCG). High DHT can make you lose a lot of head hair, as it did for me. My GP did not know this was a possibility. He had not read the book. Or the above cited URLS. Bummer. More later...
Biologist
I read the text of your hyperlink but did not study the site very much. While it verifies what I wrote some months ago that some studies have been done using very high doses of DHEA (so thanks for demonstrating that fact), I was not real impressed with their presentation partly because it may leave the impression that doses that high are common and/or acceptable. I think they may be a bit irresponsible on that matter, but I am no expert on DHEA. I am currently taking 25 mg but took 100 mg per day for a month or so as an experiment (which worked, as hypothsised, to double my testosterone levels as measured by testing -- something that I might be continuing if it were not for my TRT). Here is one of the obvious things that the author of that text did not mention, and it is a big deal: It has been known for years that DHEA WILL raise the testosterone levels of those with very low levels, but not so for healthy young men (e.g., the college students used in each of the studies). So, ironically, both of the studies (with their contradictory results, no less) are meaningless right from the start, which he later somewhat states (while not specifically mentioning the increased testosterone levels found in the older men, only that there was a subjective improvement in their sense of well-being). Also the author speaks of "andro" as if it were a good alternative. Andro has not been available to the public without a prescription for several years now. In short, there are much better URLs available on DHEA. A give away of his slackness is his third sentence in his presentation where there is a major glaring typo which he did not review enough to catch. I would cut and paste it here, but for some reason it will not cooperate. Thanks for posting it anyway just to verify that such studies on incredibly high doses of DHEA have been done in the past wIth no apparent harm -- don't try this with other hormones though! DHEA is recognized to be a bit of an enigma among human hormones. It's exact role has not been nailed down. BTW, the testosterone that it can convert to is never in the bloodstream as testosterone. The conversion form DHEA happens INSIDE the cells on a limited basis. How does blood or saliva testosterone levels increase then? Probably because more testosterone supplies are able to remain in the blood because some of the cells have converted DHEA and do not need to pull it from circulation.
If one suspects low testosterone levels, which is a REAL GOOD bet for statin victims (particularly those who have not completely recovered inside a year), I would recommend doing two saliva tests ordered from one of the major online supplement suppliers. Initially, one would want to order a test for TOTAL TESTOSTERONE and one for ESTRADIOL (E2). Generally they are about $50 per test. You spit in a test tube they send you and then mail it to them. They test it and send (e.g., email) you the results with their comments/diagnosis -- you will be able to compare your results to the standard averages for "healthy" men your age. These two tests are a good indicator of whether you need to look further, and it is enough evidence on its own to get the attention of even a general practitioner. (But run, don't walk from any GP, they're dangerous, as are most urologists and endocrinologists, as I will probably explain in a later post.) For those interested, after reading the book I mentioned above, read the two hyperlinks found here:
*http://www.allthingsmale.com/index.htm
Reports written and published by Dr. Crisler:
1) TRT: A Recipe for Success
2) HCG Update
If one does have low levels, there is MUCH advantage (i.e., health and quality of life) on getting it up. And it does not have to happen with exogenous testosterone for many men. While Dr. Crisler might seem to disagree somewhat (while not really), I would suggest the first thing to try would be very small doses of Arimidex (to get estrodiol/estrogen down and the ratio improved with existing testosterone) along with subcutaneous HCG (mimicking the brain's chemical signal to get the "testosterone factories" working on their own). Keep in mind that "the factories" are generally fine, it is the brain signals (from the pituitary gland damaged by statins) that are not being sent often enough and strong enough in the case for most men and particularly true I suspect for statin damaged men. That was the case for me. Stains are hell on the testosterone system, which is bad enough on its own, but this also prevents the repairing of other statin damage since testosterone/androgen levels are now deficient. (Wonder why they never told us this? Maybe the same reason they never told us that they are deadly with most or all antibiotics -- who in their right mind would buy them then?! Good business decision, I guess.)
He recommends Androgel if one is to start true TRT. That's fine, but better test often right after starting as it can raise your levels DHT levels more than other methods for TRT (including the above one I cite with the HCG). High DHT can make you lose a lot of head hair, as it did for me. My GP did not know this was a possibility. He had not read the book. Or the above cited URLS. Bummer. More later...
Biologist
- Biologist
- Posts: 674
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:25 pm
by Biologist » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:37 am
There is no need to learn about the caveats of a treatment one sees no need in doing. The books I have read have been good at explaining the advantages of TRT, and I have passed a few of them along in very general terms. However, there are downsides beyond the concern of finding an experienced competent doctor, which can be tough. Some of these issues are harder to find discussed in the few books that exist on TRT or HRT in general. I will discuss some of these concerns in a post to follow before long.
One correction from my previous post right above: The test results WILL NOT diagnosis one's condition. That was a poor choice of words. That will have to be done by a practitioner, while the books, particularly the one I have recommended in this thread, should give you a pretty good idea. I have two such kits here sometimes used by a local doctor (one saliva and one for small "pin prick" blood samples) and have read the directions for the saliva one, however, I have never used one. I have researched "the concept" and know that the test are considered to be accurate. I use blood tests from blood drawn (like for lipid testing) at a facility affiliated with a local hospital.
The idea is to educate yourself -- and in advance. I did my best. But still there are some things that I wish I knew then that I know now. I will pass some of those things along in this thread.
Biologist
One correction from my previous post right above: The test results WILL NOT diagnosis one's condition. That was a poor choice of words. That will have to be done by a practitioner, while the books, particularly the one I have recommended in this thread, should give you a pretty good idea. I have two such kits here sometimes used by a local doctor (one saliva and one for small "pin prick" blood samples) and have read the directions for the saliva one, however, I have never used one. I have researched "the concept" and know that the test are considered to be accurate. I use blood tests from blood drawn (like for lipid testing) at a facility affiliated with a local hospital.
The idea is to educate yourself -- and in advance. I did my best. But still there are some things that I wish I knew then that I know now. I will pass some of those things along in this thread.
Biologist
- Biologist
- Posts: 674
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:25 pm
by Biologist » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:30 pm
One of the issues not commonly discussed regarding TRT is the fact that once one starts TRT, it is likely a lifetime venture. The HPTA (Hypothalmus-Pituitary-Testicular-Axis) may cease to perform reliably after some months on TRT. This is not an absolute, but it is something to be explored and considered before starting.
The other issue that comes to mind, which is completely preventable (provided having a competent doctor on your side) is testicular atrophy. They get smaller. (Just like for steriod-using/abusing bodybuilders.) A GP will shrink you up to nothing, because they do not know any better. (I blame the AMA for that one; doctors are just a not required to be taught properly -- and after all, it is not really life threatening, and there is little money in doing it right. "It's a 'quality of life issue' so why should we give a hoot?") A urologist may sure do the same -- while they certainly should know better. (When I asked my urologist about it, I was told "Oh, we don't prescribe that here!" I should have simply said: "Yeah, well why the hell not!" Her recommendation was to stop the TRT -- WRONG! That would have exacerbated the problem, as well as create new ones, as just discussed above regarding the HPTA.) Endocrinologists, I have heard and read, are about as likely as the others to not have a clue, while the likelihood of finding competence there may be slightly increase with that specialty. What is the answer? HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin); the stuff is cheap and fantastic. You will see that I have included some quotes/excerpts below in this post that sum things up pretty nicely. What I would add is that if one goes too long (i.e., under the "care" of an incompetent for too long), there is only so much HCG can do. It may not bring you completely back to "as before." The fact that this is not common knowledge and common practice in our health care system is asinine (just like with statin abuse by doctors where their revised Hippocratic Oath is: "First do some harm").
I have a very competent physician now. BTW, the single biggest demographic of his practice is other doctors. Get that? Many of his patients are doctors. (At least they know enough to know where to go to find competence.) Here is how I found him. I went to my pharmacy (K-Mart) and simply asked the pharmacist who locally is prescribing HCG for men. (She gave me the name of a local Compounding Pharmacy who she believed had such a list of names -- they did.) This guy is good. BTW, he is on HRT too and knows what he is doing. (I believe I too pretty much know what I am doing these day.) Considering that book that I recommend in this thread (and excepted below) has been out for over 10 years, I personally consider it borderline criminal not to be up on HCG. It is like Dr. Shippen's (the author) father (a retire doctor himself) told him years ago: "Doctors tend to be down on what they are not up on." And why should they be up on it? There is no consequence to not knowing what you are doing regarding TRT. Again, this is our screwed medical system "at work." Our system is a corporate joke. BTW, I also think that anyone who voted for our current administration for the second time (I did the first time, and had been a Republican basically since birth), and would do it again if they could out of ignorance, anti-patriotism, greed or just plain stupidity, might deserve a little jail time too, or some type of mandatory rehab, or some serious wealth confiscation. (For me, that includes a brother and several good friends.) There is just no time for that crap any more. "What's the Matter With Kansas" my butt! Hell, what's the matter the half the entire country!
*http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-America/dp/B000FTWB3K/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207257249&sr=8-1
Hopefully I pissed off a few Idiot Crooks who are not smart enough to know they are either (i.e., idiot or crook). I'll just be nicer about it and put it this way: about half the country desperately needs a brain transplant. Not to say that the alternative in 2004 would have been any good either. The alternative would have been horrible -- but less than half as bad as what we got instead. Everything happening now was nearly 100% predictable -- including the price of gold. I did fine on that count starting shortly after the election. How anyone could have missed that opportunity still leaves me slightly amazed.
OK, enough of that. (Kind of mean today, aren't I?
)
I very happily signed a "will not sue" agreement with my new doctor. Why happily? Well, for the first thing, I will not be doing anything that "Dr. Biologist" decides is not a good idea. Second, I want my doctor to be doing the right thing for the patient, not the right thing for covering the doctor's butt. That makes sense, right? I do not want to pay for an unnecessary MRI (for instance) to protect his license from the extremely low chance that I have a pituitary tumor that may be causing my problems. Screw all that. The existing tests show what the problem is. I want to do the reasonable thing, not the unreasonable thing. Think it through.
That's enough for now. Later I may detail my remaining statin damage and where TRT has helped in that regard (e.g., my lipid numbers are agruabley perfect now). I may also discuss my treatment a bit.
Biologist
_____
Here are the excerpts:
From one of the papers I recommended above (where one needs MS WORD on their computer to open). Note that my first two doctors appeared unaware that this could even happen. If this had happened in my college days, I would have been Irate. In my seventies, I probably could not have cared less. I am 50, and some where in between the two extremes of concern. But it just pisses me off since it was so preventable, as you will see.
AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL
By John Crisler, DO
"Any physician who administers TRT will, within the
first few months of doing so, field complaints from
their patients because they are now experiencing
troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the
numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never
enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular
atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level,
secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces,
no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG
—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively,
and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous
form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared
moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones."
_____
Page 193-195 from "The Testosterone Syndrome"
Chorionic Gonadotrophin is very similar in molecular structure and function to LH, one of the main stimulating hormones produced by the pituitary gland. You may recall our discussion of gonadotrophins in Chapter 4. These are substances -- appropriately enough -- that send messages to the gonads. When your pituitary, for instance, receives word from the hypothalamus that testosterone levels are too low, it secretes gonadotrophin such as LH or FSH which, arriving at the testicles, transmits a message to the Leydig cells down there that roughly translates as, "Come on, guys, coffee break is over. Time to get back on the job." At least, that's the way things are supposed to work.
However, if a man's testosterone levels are too low, clearly something is broken. An experienced endocrinologist quickly asks himself a basic question: is the deficiency that the man shows due to lack of stimulation from the control centers in the brain, or does it result from testicular incapacity to secrete sufficient male hormone? In medical terms, he want to know if the deficiency is caused by secondary or primary hypogonadism.
Usually, if it's a control center problem, lab tests will show that levels of LH and FSH are low, indicating that the body is not making an effort to stimulate testosterone increase. If it's a problem of testicular incapacity, LH and FSH levels will be high because the pituitary, in a vain effort to force the testicles to manufacture testosterone adequately, will be releasing those hormones at every opportunity.
Although he distinction sounds simple, measuring and interpreting these hormones levels can be complex. I have usually found that one can test the situation through treatment.
A hormone call chorionic gonadotrophin is an injectable booster that sends the same message to the gonads as LH or FSH and, since it's more easily manufactured, we use ti to stimulate testicular production. Frequently, the best approach is toe simply give chorionic gonadotrophin to the testosterone-deficent male and see what happens. You will generally see a rise in testosterone within a month after first administration of chorionic gonadotrophin, if the testosterone problem was due to insufficient stimulation from the control centers. The Leydig cells within the testicles will increase in size and very often the testicles themselves will actually grown larger.
Used for years to boost fertility in males and to help in cases of undescended testicles, chorionic gonadotrophin has long been overlooked as a specific treatment for testosterone deficiency. In my own progress treating patients in the male menopause, CG has been the newest and one of the brightest threads. The simplicity, naturalness, and safety has been so great that the use of this treatment has totally changed my approach.
Chorionic gonadotrophin is administered by injection. The syringes and needles are equivalent to those used for insulin injections -- they are extremely small, 30-guage (about the diameter of a human hair!) , only one inch long, and virtually painless. The rankest amateur around can give them with a minimum training. The injections are usually given two to three times weekly.
Your physician can easily work out an individualized dose to bring testosterone response back into the normal, healthy range. CG works nicely with other natural boosters and, in early stages of the male menopause, is often only needed to give an initial cycling boost to the endocrine system. The pituitary continues on after this shove in the normal direction activates control panel receptors.
A high percentage of patients, especially in their midlife years, have a satisfactory response to chorionic gonadotrophin. Testosterone levels will frequently rise into the 600 to 800 ng/dl range.
As men get older, the effectiveness of chorionic gonadotrophin may decline. In other words, the older a man is the more likely it is that he has developed actual testicular incapacity, i.e., an incapacity of the Leydig cells to produce sufficient quantities of male hormone no matter how sharply they're stimulated by pituitary gonadotrophins. It is rare to see a man in his forties or fifties with testicular incapacity. But oonce that stage is reached -- whether young or old -- it's time to move on to the next state: actual hormone replacement.
The other issue that comes to mind, which is completely preventable (provided having a competent doctor on your side) is testicular atrophy. They get smaller. (Just like for steriod-using/abusing bodybuilders.) A GP will shrink you up to nothing, because they do not know any better. (I blame the AMA for that one; doctors are just a not required to be taught properly -- and after all, it is not really life threatening, and there is little money in doing it right. "It's a 'quality of life issue' so why should we give a hoot?") A urologist may sure do the same -- while they certainly should know better. (When I asked my urologist about it, I was told "Oh, we don't prescribe that here!" I should have simply said: "Yeah, well why the hell not!" Her recommendation was to stop the TRT -- WRONG! That would have exacerbated the problem, as well as create new ones, as just discussed above regarding the HPTA.) Endocrinologists, I have heard and read, are about as likely as the others to not have a clue, while the likelihood of finding competence there may be slightly increase with that specialty. What is the answer? HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin); the stuff is cheap and fantastic. You will see that I have included some quotes/excerpts below in this post that sum things up pretty nicely. What I would add is that if one goes too long (i.e., under the "care" of an incompetent for too long), there is only so much HCG can do. It may not bring you completely back to "as before." The fact that this is not common knowledge and common practice in our health care system is asinine (just like with statin abuse by doctors where their revised Hippocratic Oath is: "First do some harm").
I have a very competent physician now. BTW, the single biggest demographic of his practice is other doctors. Get that? Many of his patients are doctors. (At least they know enough to know where to go to find competence.) Here is how I found him. I went to my pharmacy (K-Mart) and simply asked the pharmacist who locally is prescribing HCG for men. (She gave me the name of a local Compounding Pharmacy who she believed had such a list of names -- they did.) This guy is good. BTW, he is on HRT too and knows what he is doing. (I believe I too pretty much know what I am doing these day.) Considering that book that I recommend in this thread (and excepted below) has been out for over 10 years, I personally consider it borderline criminal not to be up on HCG. It is like Dr. Shippen's (the author) father (a retire doctor himself) told him years ago: "Doctors tend to be down on what they are not up on." And why should they be up on it? There is no consequence to not knowing what you are doing regarding TRT. Again, this is our screwed medical system "at work." Our system is a corporate joke. BTW, I also think that anyone who voted for our current administration for the second time (I did the first time, and had been a Republican basically since birth), and would do it again if they could out of ignorance, anti-patriotism, greed or just plain stupidity, might deserve a little jail time too, or some type of mandatory rehab, or some serious wealth confiscation. (For me, that includes a brother and several good friends.) There is just no time for that crap any more. "What's the Matter With Kansas" my butt! Hell, what's the matter the half the entire country!
*http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-Kansas-Conservatives-America/dp/B000FTWB3K/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207257249&sr=8-1
Hopefully I pissed off a few Idiot Crooks who are not smart enough to know they are either (i.e., idiot or crook). I'll just be nicer about it and put it this way: about half the country desperately needs a brain transplant. Not to say that the alternative in 2004 would have been any good either. The alternative would have been horrible -- but less than half as bad as what we got instead. Everything happening now was nearly 100% predictable -- including the price of gold. I did fine on that count starting shortly after the election. How anyone could have missed that opportunity still leaves me slightly amazed.
OK, enough of that. (Kind of mean today, aren't I?
)
I very happily signed a "will not sue" agreement with my new doctor. Why happily? Well, for the first thing, I will not be doing anything that "Dr. Biologist" decides is not a good idea. Second, I want my doctor to be doing the right thing for the patient, not the right thing for covering the doctor's butt. That makes sense, right? I do not want to pay for an unnecessary MRI (for instance) to protect his license from the extremely low chance that I have a pituitary tumor that may be causing my problems. Screw all that. The existing tests show what the problem is. I want to do the reasonable thing, not the unreasonable thing. Think it through.
That's enough for now. Later I may detail my remaining statin damage and where TRT has helped in that regard (e.g., my lipid numbers are agruabley perfect now). I may also discuss my treatment a bit.
Biologist
_____
Here are the excerpts:
From one of the papers I recommended above (where one needs MS WORD on their computer to open). Note that my first two doctors appeared unaware that this could even happen. If this had happened in my college days, I would have been Irate. In my seventies, I probably could not have cared less. I am 50, and some where in between the two extremes of concern. But it just pisses me off since it was so preventable, as you will see.
AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL
By John Crisler, DO
"Any physician who administers TRT will, within the
first few months of doing so, field complaints from
their patients because they are now experiencing
troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the
numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never
enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular
atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level,
secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces,
no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG
—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively,
and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous
form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared
moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones."
_____
Page 193-195 from "The Testosterone Syndrome"
Chorionic Gonadotrophin is very similar in molecular structure and function to LH, one of the main stimulating hormones produced by the pituitary gland. You may recall our discussion of gonadotrophins in Chapter 4. These are substances -- appropriately enough -- that send messages to the gonads. When your pituitary, for instance, receives word from the hypothalamus that testosterone levels are too low, it secretes gonadotrophin such as LH or FSH which, arriving at the testicles, transmits a message to the Leydig cells down there that roughly translates as, "Come on, guys, coffee break is over. Time to get back on the job." At least, that's the way things are supposed to work.
However, if a man's testosterone levels are too low, clearly something is broken. An experienced endocrinologist quickly asks himself a basic question: is the deficiency that the man shows due to lack of stimulation from the control centers in the brain, or does it result from testicular incapacity to secrete sufficient male hormone? In medical terms, he want to know if the deficiency is caused by secondary or primary hypogonadism.
Usually, if it's a control center problem, lab tests will show that levels of LH and FSH are low, indicating that the body is not making an effort to stimulate testosterone increase. If it's a problem of testicular incapacity, LH and FSH levels will be high because the pituitary, in a vain effort to force the testicles to manufacture testosterone adequately, will be releasing those hormones at every opportunity.
Although he distinction sounds simple, measuring and interpreting these hormones levels can be complex. I have usually found that one can test the situation through treatment.
A hormone call chorionic gonadotrophin is an injectable booster that sends the same message to the gonads as LH or FSH and, since it's more easily manufactured, we use ti to stimulate testicular production. Frequently, the best approach is toe simply give chorionic gonadotrophin to the testosterone-deficent male and see what happens. You will generally see a rise in testosterone within a month after first administration of chorionic gonadotrophin, if the testosterone problem was due to insufficient stimulation from the control centers. The Leydig cells within the testicles will increase in size and very often the testicles themselves will actually grown larger.
Used for years to boost fertility in males and to help in cases of undescended testicles, chorionic gonadotrophin has long been overlooked as a specific treatment for testosterone deficiency. In my own progress treating patients in the male menopause, CG has been the newest and one of the brightest threads. The simplicity, naturalness, and safety has been so great that the use of this treatment has totally changed my approach.
Chorionic gonadotrophin is administered by injection. The syringes and needles are equivalent to those used for insulin injections -- they are extremely small, 30-guage (about the diameter of a human hair!) , only one inch long, and virtually painless. The rankest amateur around can give them with a minimum training. The injections are usually given two to three times weekly.
Your physician can easily work out an individualized dose to bring testosterone response back into the normal, healthy range. CG works nicely with other natural boosters and, in early stages of the male menopause, is often only needed to give an initial cycling boost to the endocrine system. The pituitary continues on after this shove in the normal direction activates control panel receptors.
A high percentage of patients, especially in their midlife years, have a satisfactory response to chorionic gonadotrophin. Testosterone levels will frequently rise into the 600 to 800 ng/dl range.
As men get older, the effectiveness of chorionic gonadotrophin may decline. In other words, the older a man is the more likely it is that he has developed actual testicular incapacity, i.e., an incapacity of the Leydig cells to produce sufficient quantities of male hormone no matter how sharply they're stimulated by pituitary gonadotrophins. It is rare to see a man in his forties or fifties with testicular incapacity. But oonce that stage is reached -- whether young or old -- it's time to move on to the next state: actual hormone replacement.
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by cjbrooksjc » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:22 am
Biologist: Thanks for the info. It certainly gives many of us A LOT to think about! In the main it's all a bit disturbing and not fit for cocktail conversation as I would have to use the term "weenie shrinker" at some point.
I had a mentor explain something to me once, and it has stayed with me: He drew a small circle on the board, saying:
"At thirty, everyhting I knew was in this small circle, and everything I DIDN'T know (tapping the outside of the circle) was outside this perimeter."
Then he drew a much bigger circle (encapsulating the smaller one) saying:
"Today I KNOW what was in the smaller circle AND what was outside its perimeter. I also know what is inside this much larger circle. BUT, what I don't know (tapping the outside of the much larger circle) is now outside THIS perimeter!"
That is sort of the way I feel every day now: the more I learn, the more I know how ignorant I really am.
Best,
Brooks
I had a mentor explain something to me once, and it has stayed with me: He drew a small circle on the board, saying:
"At thirty, everyhting I knew was in this small circle, and everything I DIDN'T know (tapping the outside of the circle) was outside this perimeter."
Then he drew a much bigger circle (encapsulating the smaller one) saying:
"Today I KNOW what was in the smaller circle AND what was outside its perimeter. I also know what is inside this much larger circle. BUT, what I don't know (tapping the outside of the much larger circle) is now outside THIS perimeter!"
That is sort of the way I feel every day now: the more I learn, the more I know how ignorant I really am.
Best,
Brooks
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by Ray Holder » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:31 pm
[quote="Ray Holder"]Has anyone had problems with a bad batch of L Carnitine Powder, the usual sort is free running, like a fine salt, but I have had some recently which was more inclined to stick together and on to the spoon, with an off white colour. I found it to be totally ineffective, and only got back to normal with some of the other version. I wonder if it might have had unsuitable storage conditions, or become damp.
Ray[/quote]Mar 18th 2008, to which Brooks replied "BIN it"
I now sincerely wish I had done so immediately After about a month on this bad batch, I was getting weaker again, and started getting red/pink flecks in my phlegm. I went to my doctor, who thought unmentionable things like lung cancer, I never smoked, or asbestos cancer, and sent me off to the thoracic clinic. Lots of XRays, breathing tests, ECG, CT scan, and blood tests, and eventually the consultant said I had a good pair of lungs for a man of my age and discharged me. I said that I still had my original problem, but he said I must see my GP if I wanted more investigation. Exactly a week later, I found myself bubbling in my throat when breathing in bed, and thought, surely that is some sort of fluid on my lungs, but as it didn't trouble too much, and I had had my fill of investigations , I thought I would see how things worked out, but about 3 nights later, at 4am, I woke unable to get my breath, my lung muscles were not making sufficiently strong movements, and I could not make them work any harder. I was in a form of heart failure. I managed to call the ambulance, my neighbour, almost at full term pregnancy, had to get up to let them in, but some oxygen and a lot of attention from the medical people involved had be back to easy breathing in an hour or two.
The main curative factor has been large amounts of diuretics to take away the fluid, and the side effects have been rather horrendous, the worst one for someone living alone is the drop in blood pressure, in a hospital bed one just lies back until it passes, but that is not an option when back home alone. I am coping fairly well, but cannot move far from the bathroom.
Now the point of this tale, I thought that using good L Carnitine would have put my heart back into its previous good working state, but it would appear that it had weakened and was unable to clear lung fluids away, and these were interfering with oxygen absorption, causing more weakness to my heart action, a sort of vicious circle. The red flecks have now gone, but it may take a little time to get right back to normal.
The Lcarnitine in question was only a little discoloured from the usual clear white crystalline form, it must have been old or badly stored stock, but the containers carry no expiry date information. The pure white form seems to work well, but I am on the more expensive but pharmaceutically suppled variety from W Australia until all gets back to normal. Those who must use the less expensive variety, and when it is good it seems to be very good, must be vigilant and examine every consignment carefully, rejecting any that appears to be in any way sub standard, so that you do not suffer the same fate.
Ray
Ray[/quote]Mar 18th 2008, to which Brooks replied "BIN it"
I now sincerely wish I had done so immediately After about a month on this bad batch, I was getting weaker again, and started getting red/pink flecks in my phlegm. I went to my doctor, who thought unmentionable things like lung cancer, I never smoked, or asbestos cancer, and sent me off to the thoracic clinic. Lots of XRays, breathing tests, ECG, CT scan, and blood tests, and eventually the consultant said I had a good pair of lungs for a man of my age and discharged me. I said that I still had my original problem, but he said I must see my GP if I wanted more investigation. Exactly a week later, I found myself bubbling in my throat when breathing in bed, and thought, surely that is some sort of fluid on my lungs, but as it didn't trouble too much, and I had had my fill of investigations , I thought I would see how things worked out, but about 3 nights later, at 4am, I woke unable to get my breath, my lung muscles were not making sufficiently strong movements, and I could not make them work any harder. I was in a form of heart failure. I managed to call the ambulance, my neighbour, almost at full term pregnancy, had to get up to let them in, but some oxygen and a lot of attention from the medical people involved had be back to easy breathing in an hour or two.
The main curative factor has been large amounts of diuretics to take away the fluid, and the side effects have been rather horrendous, the worst one for someone living alone is the drop in blood pressure, in a hospital bed one just lies back until it passes, but that is not an option when back home alone. I am coping fairly well, but cannot move far from the bathroom.
Now the point of this tale, I thought that using good L Carnitine would have put my heart back into its previous good working state, but it would appear that it had weakened and was unable to clear lung fluids away, and these were interfering with oxygen absorption, causing more weakness to my heart action, a sort of vicious circle. The red flecks have now gone, but it may take a little time to get right back to normal.
The Lcarnitine in question was only a little discoloured from the usual clear white crystalline form, it must have been old or badly stored stock, but the containers carry no expiry date information. The pure white form seems to work well, but I am on the more expensive but pharmaceutically suppled variety from W Australia until all gets back to normal. Those who must use the less expensive variety, and when it is good it seems to be very good, must be vigilant and examine every consignment carefully, rejecting any that appears to be in any way sub standard, so that you do not suffer the same fate.
Ray
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by cjbrooksjc » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:26 pm
Ray: I am sorry to hear of your troubles. None of us can keep this spring from unwinding finally, but I hope you are the exception and can regain your strength and past vigor. We certainly need your spirit here, and we have all benefited from your broad knowledge base (no feminine inference intended).
Best regards,
Brooks
Best regards,
Brooks
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by Brian C. » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:33 am
Ray, that was a nasty "slip on the mountain". If our collective Will can help you re-establish your firm footing then all speed to your recovery.
I believe I get my l-carnitine from the same source and I too noticed that my previous batch was particularly smelly and clumpy, with small brown aggregations . I also believe I may have contributed to its rapid degradation by using a spoon likely having adhering ascorbate crystals. I now spoon the l-carnitine FIRST into my potions to avoid contamination :roll:
Steady as she goes Number One :)
Brian.
I believe I get my l-carnitine from the same source and I too noticed that my previous batch was particularly smelly and clumpy, with small brown aggregations . I also believe I may have contributed to its rapid degradation by using a spoon likely having adhering ascorbate crystals. I now spoon the l-carnitine FIRST into my potions to avoid contamination :roll:
Steady as she goes Number One :)
Brian.
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by Ray Holder » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:50 am
Thanks, friends, I shall endeavour to stay here as long as I can!!
Having had medication with more than adequate side effects, I believe that drugs can only hope to part exchange something nasty for something else, less dangerous, but not too tolerable !!!
Ray
Having had medication with more than adequate side effects, I believe that drugs can only hope to part exchange something nasty for something else, less dangerous, but not too tolerable !!!
Ray
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dosage of acetyl-L-carnatine
by jbrunzie » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:01 am
Since reading on the forum several months ago about acetyl-L-carnatine I decided to try it. I bought several bottle of 500 mg capsules from Vitamin Research Co. (a reliable company) and, not knowing how much to take, began with 1000 mg both am and pm. Pretty much all of my memory has come back and my mind is clearer than it has been since this whole statin fiasco began! I have tried backing off, even just 500 mg and very soon start losing words again. I feel like it is, for me, like insulin to a diabetic. Thank all of you for the information! I still wonder if I am taking too much. My doctor is open to alternative things but certainly can't answer that question! Even after I quit all statins a few years ago I never had completely recovered my memory. This is wonderful!
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by Allen1 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:57 am
Hi there jbrunzie,
it certainly is good news to hear your memory has improved with Acetyl-L-Carnitine. I think that you are more than likely taking the right amount that suits your needs, the 2 x 1000mg daily dose is probably about average for a lot of us, some people require a lot more though. I take L-Carnitine although it has helped a lot with most of the aches and some memory improvement I think that the Acetyl version may improve the my memory even more (something to fall back on). The stuff I use is from Bulknutrition and is the powder form in 250 or 500gram containers, it is or maybe was a lot cheaper than the pill form and was recommended by Ray Holder. The downside at the moment is the exchange rate between the dollar and the UK pound (plus import duty), all of which is making supplies oh so expensive.
All the best and as I say it is good to hear something as good as this now and then :-)
it certainly is good news to hear your memory has improved with Acetyl-L-Carnitine. I think that you are more than likely taking the right amount that suits your needs, the 2 x 1000mg daily dose is probably about average for a lot of us, some people require a lot more though. I take L-Carnitine although it has helped a lot with most of the aches and some memory improvement I think that the Acetyl version may improve the my memory even more (something to fall back on). The stuff I use is from Bulknutrition and is the powder form in 250 or 500gram containers, it is or maybe was a lot cheaper than the pill form and was recommended by Ray Holder. The downside at the moment is the exchange rate between the dollar and the UK pound (plus import duty), all of which is making supplies oh so expensive.
All the best and as I say it is good to hear something as good as this now and then :-)
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by cjbrooksjc » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:56 am
jbrunzie: this site may help yo understand:
**http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/dec2004_supp_acetyl_01.htm
Best,
Brooks
**http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/dec2004_supp_acetyl_01.htm
Best,
Brooks
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