Dr. Graveline's Best Weight Loss Diet - not best for health!

[maule5662h]

Dr. Graveline gives us excellent guidance on why to avoid statins.

Dr. Graveline's "Best Weight Loss Diet" - certainly is not best for health! It just sounds like the Atkins Diet!! Be aware that mother's milk only has 6% of calories from protein and 5% of calories from fat. Our health problems come from the big excesses of these nutrients and mainly from animal foods. I am 74 and take no medicines and have helped educate others on a "Healthy Lifestyle." The optimal nutrition for best human health is a plant-based, whole-foods diet centered on starchy plants and green and yellow vegetables, with some fruit (less fruit if on a weight loss program). Minimize all animal products and processed foods, including processed vegetable oils. Go to http://www.drmcdougall.com to get the evidence-based education on optimal nutrition and over 30 years of "Total Health Solution" (THS) guidance. My family of four are all very healthy plant eaters - Vegans - after we all participated in a 10-day THS clinic seven years ago. My health materials are at http://homepage.mac.com/maule5662h

[David Staup]

You are. of course, welcome to your opinion however completely wrong it is :lol:
why you would post this here is beyond me

are you a troll?

David

[Allen1]

Wow David!

I think I would have replied on a similar manner come to think of it.


A vegetarian diet with some form of animal intake ie butter, eggs and milk is restrictive enough in being able to get vital nutrients and fats, but to go Vegan is another story altogether.

Of course the choice is up to the individual as to what they eat or believe in, as you say though the original poster of this thread is posting such information in the wrong site, we are all to aware of the damage that the low/no fat stupidity has caused and where animal fat has been swapped for man made/altered crud as it is, without actually deciding to cut out stuff we require as in a Vegan diet. A lot of what vegetarians eat is fine but we as human beings also require animal fats/meat to work properly.

I know you already know more about this than me but anyone else reading this reply may have the good sense to get acquainted with the reality of our dietary needs.

A good place to start is this very site, after that then maybe the link below may help, Google is a good place for answers although there are still many places that will tell you convincingly that black is white, on that score enter Statins for example!

*http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/02/25/saturated-fat-is-not-the-cause-of-heart-disease.aspx

[David Staup]

for clarification

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

David

[maule5662h]

<<You are. of course, welcome to your opinion however completely wrong it is why you would post this here is beyond me are you a troll? David>>
======= REPLY:
I posted here because there is no topic on the site that covers this subject of optimal nutrition - a subject that is much more important than taking statins!
Dr. Graveline did not say that his latest newsletter subject "The best diet for weight loss" also gave the best overall health benefits.
We all need to learn about the best ways to achieve optimal health. The "correct" nutrition for humans, based on the evidence as evaluated by the best experts in this field, is as I posted. Pay attention to Dr. John McDougall. Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr. Neal Barnard, Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, Dr. T. Colin Campbell - PhD, Dr. Jay Gordon, RD Jeff Novick, Mike Anderson (RAVE Diet). What I gave as the best diet for human health is championed by these real experts. I gave my credentials, what are yours to reject my post?

[Allen1]

Hi there maule5662h,

David's explanation of a troll speaks for itself. If you took the time to read the information in the link I provided, you would also be aware that a Vegan diet may be endured by some people while quite probably causing serious harm to many others. Human beings have evolved over a very long time and their bodies require more shall we say nutrients than a Vegan diet can provide ie we need what animal products can provide for healthy living.

The people who visit this site are looking for answers for the many problems that Statins have caused, their bodies have more than likely suffered serious consequences due to the way Statins deplete a body of many of the essential nutrients etc that it requires..... Putting information about the benefit of your preferred lifestyle, a one that would further deprive a Statin victim of even more precious nutrients is NOT a good idea to say it mildly.

I get the part where you mean the lifestyle option versus Statin usage could make a difference, the problem is apart from the whole cholesterol theory being misleading, most of the folk that look for help have already been taking Statins and the problems have already started.

"David wrote:-

for clarification

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

[maule5662h]

<<If you took the time to read the information in the link I provided, you would also be aware that a Vegan diet may be endured by some people while quite probably causing serious harm to many others. Human beings have evolved over a very long time and their bodies require more shall we say nutrients than a Vegan diet can provide ie we need what animal products can provide for healthy living. >>
I Know of Dr. Mercola and he is incorrect on many points re best nutrition. Go to the sites of the health professionals that I listed to get your better education. Re the animal products consumption - people like to hear good news about their bad habits! The cons greatly outweigh the pros.
Go to [url]http://www.drmcdougall.com[/url], [url]http://heartattackproof.com[/url], and [url]http://www.thechinastudy.com[/url]
If persons on this site made such big mistakes as taking statins then they probably can use Optimal nutrition education even more.

[David Staup]

good by
go peddle your drivel somewhere else.

david

[Allen1]

Hi there maule5662h,


What the heck are you spouting off about? Sure Dr Mercola doesn't always get it right but there again the whole medical community is guilty of that. You are adamant that Vegan diets are the way to go, well that is your personal choice, it is however NOT the choice of the vast majority of people and can be extremely harmful to a great many people due to the lack of vital nutrients that it doesn't provide. People aren't all the same and have different dietary needs, if you are not aware of that then you really should not be preaching this personal preference to people who have already gone down the low fat no fat route via the current medical trend of the day.

The people on this site took Statins as prescribed by doctors, most of them also made the recommend dietary changes as in the way of what fats to ingest and all the information of what to eat and what not to, this is now being seen for the huge mistakes they were, yet another medical blunder.

Who exactly are you, to question the trust we all had in our doctors when we were prescribed a Statin, the information that is now available was not available or hidden for many years before we found out. I think you are way out of your league trying to promote the benefit of a Vegan way of life to people who actually have learned by experience what stupid fads can do to a person.

[maule5662h]

I pointed you to experts and sites to go to to get the best education re optimal nutrition for best health. Hopefully, some readers will study and will benefit. This is not just personal material, it is the evidence-based guidance from the real experts on healthy lifestyle. At my website you can watch videos of these outstanding educators. At least hear out these, below, four links. The first one is my paper to classmates in the five nutrition classes that I recently took, all with A's, at our local college. Try not to be so set in your "nutrition reality."
Healthy Lifestyle Summary 20 March '07 =
http://homepage.mac.com/maule5662h/FileSharing40.html
Dr. John McDougall - LIFESTYLE MEDICINE =
http://homepage.mac.com/maule5662h/iMovieTheater44.html
Dr. Campbell - Animal Foods Cause Cancer! =
http://homepage.mac.com/maule5662h/iMovieTheater42.html
Dr. Esselstyn - Become Heart Attack-Proof! =
http://homepage.mac.com/maule5662h/iMovieTheater43.html
I do have a 12 MB file of materials used in a 10-session program that a family dr. and I conducted last year that I can forward.

[aeroguy]

First of all, I can’t thank Allen and David enough for the lengthy, extremely helpful posts they have written in response to my questions about various cholesterol subjects. I hope that what I’m about to say doesn’t stop that from occurring.

And while I too respect everybody’s right to the diets they choose for themselves, I have to say that I agree with just about everything Maule has written regarding meat and dairy.

I feel qualified to say so, not simply because Maule is a vegan and so am I (except for an occasional veggie omelet), but because I have read just about every book he mentioned cover to cover.

I’ve read Ornish, Pritikin, Esselstyn, Campbell, and McDougall. Robert Pritikin is my favorite of the group. His father, Nathan, cured himself of heart disease on his own back in the 60s with a plant diet.

Based on the evidence these five or six authors have produced, I am convinced that there is nothing that comes from a cow that will ever do anyone any good.

This does not mean that dairy foods, beef, pork, and poultry do not contain certain elements that are necessary for good health. But those are so outweighed by the overall harm from the food that they negate anything positive, much the same way that the harm statins do outweigh any good they might do.

There is, however, one big problem I have with Ornish, McDougall, and Esselstyn. All of them recommend not only a plant-based, animal-free diet, but they also say you shouldn’t use olive oil or canola oil. And that you should never consume even a drop of saturated fat. A year ago, I stopped taking all statins and supplements because I was so sure the advice of these doctors would help me.

For eight weeks, I cooked no food in olive (or any other) oils, and read every food label to be sure there was none in anything I bought. I used no pasta sauce, but rather crushed tomatoes. All of these doctors claimed that patients they treated lowered their cholesterol bigtime in one or two weeks, I figured just to be sure, I’d go on the diet for eight weeks.

I walked 45 minutes briskly every night, ate bland food, and never cheated once.

After eight weeks, I had my cholesterol test, and every number was WORSE. My HDL had gone from 43 to 35. My LDL had risen five points, my trigs about ten points, and my overall was up eight points.

So, while this diet may have worked for some patients, it not only didn’t work for me, it worsened my readings. I immediately went back to eating olive oil and other things I’d refrained from, and two months later, with no medication, my HDL was 41, and my other numbers improved slightly.

One other thing. Three years ago, due to acquired lactose intolerance, I stopped consuming all dairy products. Not that I ate that much of it to begin with. Since then, I have had three annual PSA tests. Each one has been lower than the previous one. My last reading was 1.2, which is about as good as it gets. There is much statistical evidence that dairy increases a person’s chances of both breast and prostate cancer.

I know that the Dairy Association and the Cattlemen’s Association and such can produce self-funded studies (much like those produced by Big Pharma) that show how good their products are, but the most plausible evidence does not come from lobbyists and trade associations.

I think that of all the doctors Maule cited, McDougall is the one I trust the least, even though much of what he writes is true. If you read his books, you will discover a lot of contradictory information.

BTW, Esselstyn’s son, an Austin, Texas firefighter, also wrote an excellent book on plant diets. His entire firehouse has been on his vegan diet for years, and their bloodwork in all categories has improved drastically.

[David Staup]

aeroguy you make the mistake of believing that when your numbers go down you are more healthy ...you are still mislead by the myth...at your age and beyond the cholesterol level that has the lowest mortality and morbidity is 272 yes 272 the following excerpt is very informative

Among the elderly the effects of low serum total cholesterol and low LDL-C were found to be deadly. In a study on residents of northern Manhattan, NY, 2,277 subjects were followed for 10 years with results reported in 2005. Two-thirds were female and 1/3 of the total were Hispanic, African American and white. Subjects were 65-98 years old at baseline, mean age 76. The chance of dying was twice as great in the lowest quartile of total cholesterol or LDL-C levels, while HDL-C and triglyceride levels were not related to all-cause mortality in this age group.

Women had higher baseline total cholesterol and LDL-C levels (206 and 124) than men (191 and 117), yet the women lived longer. Men with the same total cholesterol and LDL-C levels as women lived as long. Of the subjects, 1/5 were taking statin drugs to lower total cholesterol and LDL-C, which would have pushed them into the lowest quartile.

This is an excellent confirmation that high total cholesterol and LDL-C ( low density lipoprotein cholesterol ) levels are beneficial, certainly in the elderly who are most likely to be prescribed a statin drug. The emphasis on the value of lowering LDL-C, rather than lowering total cholesterol, taken by Big Pharma in the last few years, is invalidated by this study. LDL-C is not bad cholesterol; it is an essential form!

Dr. Bernard Forette and a team of French researchers from Paris reported in 1989 that women of mean age 82 with high cholesterol and followed for 5 years lived the longest. When the data of Forette are graphed, the age-adjusted data show a minimal risk of dying out to total cholesterol = 320 mg/dL for elderly women. The minimum death rate occurred with a total cholesterol level of 272 mg/dL, far higher than the current National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) recommendations of approximately 200 mg/dL for everyone.

The death rate was 5.2 times higher for women who had very low cholesterol, specifically, 155 mg/dL.　 The death rate was 1.8 times higher for women who had very high cholesterol, specifically, 348 mg/dL, and also 1.8 times higher at 200 mg/dL.

What possible basis could there be for the NCEP recommendations for <200? In their report, the French doctors warned against lowering cholesterol in elderly women.

Serum total cholesterol rises naturally with age from a mean level of 178 mg/dL in 18-24 year-olds to a maximum mean level of 230 mg/dL in 55-64 year-olds. Men over 55 and women of all ages who have the highest cholesterol levels live the longest, since high total cholesterol protects against cardiovascular disease (CVD) and infections (Ravnskov U. High cholesterol may protect against infections and atherosclerosis. Quarterly Journal of Medicine, 2003;96:927-934).




why the vegan diet is not the way to go

Often, it is noticed that people who follow a vegan diet lack a number of essential nutrients. Read on to find problems with vegan diets.
•Vitamin B12 Deficiency: Vitamin B12 is not regularly found in plant food. Vitamin B12 deficiency has many major health problems, like anemia, neuro-degenerative disorders. In lactating mothers, deficiency of Vitamin B12 causes neurological disorders in children.
•Calcium Deficiency: Studies have shown that vegans are more at risk of fractured bones than their meat eating, non-vegetarian counterparts. A vegan diet is very low in calcium, which gives rise to this problem.
•Vitamin D Deficiency: Vegan diet is also low in Vitamin D. It maintains bone density, helps in healthy bone growth and also in maintaining normal functioning of the nervous system. Lack of Vitamin D hampers calcium and phosphorus absorption in the body. Hence, there are rising cases of osteoporosis amongst followers of vegan diets. At the same time lack of Vitamin D can also increase the risk of breast and prostate cancer. Children on vegan diets are more prone to rickets.
•Deficiency of Iodine: In many countries around the world, animal products are used to manufacture iodine. Therefore, vegans shun iodine. However, iodine deficiency causes goiter and hypothyroidism. Soy products are emphasized in vegan diets, but a lot of soy products also leads to deficiency of iodine. If a pregnant woman follows veganism, her child is at high risk of impaired motor function, a lower IQ level and stunted growth, caused due to iodine deficiency. It is important that women who are lactating, pregnant or considering pregnancy, take care adding iodine in their diet. For the unborn baby, iodine is available as folate.
•Omega 3 Fatty Acids: A commonly seen deficiency in vegans is omega 3 essential fatty acids. This acid is important for brain functions, behavioral functions as well as normal growth and development. Omega 3 fatty acid is essential to prevent diseases like heart disease, arthritis and cancer. Deficiency of this acid during pregnancy can cause vision and nerve problems in the child.
•Low Birth Weight: Research has shown that mothers on vegan diet deliver low birth weight babies.
•Malnutrition: Several cases of infant malnutrition and death due to malnutrition have been reported due to a vegan diet.
•Iron Deficiency: Anemia and iron deficiency rates are higher in people who follow veganism. This is because iron from plants is not absorbed in the body as well as the iron from meat. Iron absorption is inhibited due to the fiber, phytates, and oxalates present in a vegan diet.

recent studies have also shown higher
plasma homocysteine concentrations than in non-vegetarians

“Vegans face a serious criticism regarding their diet when it comes to research on neurological problems. It’s not hard to find articles that study groups of non-vegans and vegans, and that show the latter group demonstrates a higher rate of neurological damage.

Cohort studies of vegetarians have shown a moderate reduction in mortality from IHD but little difference in other major causes of death or all-cause mortality in comparison with health-conscious non-vegetarians from the same population. Studies of cancer have not shown clear differences in cancer rates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians. More data are needed, particularly on the health of vegans and on the possible impacts on health of low intakes of long-chain n-3 fatty acids and vitamin B(12). Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians.

Bottom line I invite you to read this article again:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35058896/ns/health-heart_health//

and will point out aeroguy that your diet has not protected you from anything....
I think most of us here have done enough research guided by dr. Graveline to take his recommendations over either you or the troll who started this thread


we are here to help other victims and have recognised that the "concenses" of opinion in healthcare is much of what we have to dispell before we can get through to many who have not been mortally wounded by the food and healthcare industries and that is why this thread is most unwelcome.

I suggest you view the following two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

and the video on this page

http://www.spacedoc.net/great_cholesterol_con

again you both are entitled to your opinions but do not come here and claim to "know" more that Dr. Graveline there is no peer reviewed study that backs up your claims ...none

David

[maule5662h]

Thanks, Aeroguy, you covered a lot of subjects supporting a whole-foods, plant-based diet as espoused by long-experienced healthy lifestyle experts! Yes, Nathan Pritikin is on the list as a big pioneer. Add Dr. Milton Mills, who builds the big case that humans are physically designed to be mainly plant eaters ( http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/the-comparative-anatomy-of-eating.html )

We are not just eliminating cattle and dairy -- minimize all animal products, including eggs and seafoods, and restrict processed free oils and processed food-like products. This gets easy and even fun and you lack no nutrients for best health, except, remotely, B-12 after a few years. Oh - and get your vitamin D from the sun (easy for me on the California Central coast!).

Aeroguy writes: <<After eight weeks, I had my cholesterol test, and every number was WORSE. My HDL had gone from 43 to 35. My LDL had risen five points, my trigs about ten points, and my overall was up eight points.>>

Those are not big changes to get worried about. HDL goes down when you have less trash in your blood to clean up! How did you feel on your "better" diet and more exercise?

Re Dr. McDougall - he does not market pills/supplements. He does have some convenient, tasty soups that are in many stores (or order on-line at http://www.rightfoods.com). I have found him to be very consistent in his continuing education info. He got it right the first time in his 1983 book "The McDougall Plan!"

You might be thinking of Dr. Joel Fuhrman who does have various supplements and other items to sell. http://www.drfuhrman.com/

Dr. Esselstyn, from the Cleveland Clinic, also severely limits oils - both processed and in plant foods (no avocados or nuts, for example) -- as he helped heart patients, sent home to die, survive and thrive! Most are alive and in control of their lives 20 years later. He also prescribes statins to get total cholesterol down to 150. Read his 2007 book "Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease," http://www.heartattackproof.com/ For these patients, statins bad side effects may be the lesser of evils???

[maule5662h]

I did go to the two links that David posted. Thanks.

Now go here, too:
Let Dr. McDougall "Defend the McDougall Diet if I Must"
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/mar/defend.htm

[aeroguy]

David--

Excellent post, as usual. I read it twice. One criticism you have of me is 100% correct--I am still brainwashed regarding cholesterol, even though I now see statins are worthless. I'll have to work on deprogramming myself.

I am going to read all the links you provided over the weekend. I appreciate the time you took to write such a detailed post.

Are there any one or two books you know of that explain the myth of cholesterol? I read Dr. Sherry Rogers book and found it repetitive, impractical, and little more than a tool to get you to subscribe to her newsletter. Plus, she spent half the book saying how stupid worrying about cholesterol readings are, and the other half telling you to improve these supposedly meaningless numbers.

I see Malcolm Kendrick has a book out that looks good.

Thanks for any recommended reading in advance, and I'll get back to you over the weekend.

[Allen1]

@ aeroguy and David,

I have just read your posts this morning and have to say they were both very good. David's information about the problems that a Vegan diet can and does cause is similar to what I have learned over the years working with colleagues who took up and eventually gave up such a lifestyle for the problems they were having.

I agree with aeroguy to a degree about the problems with animal products, but only for the reason that we pump antibiotics and growth hormones and the likes into what will eventually end up on our plate. The very same problems are also present with a vegetarian diet although it is pesticides or chemical fertilisers that are present in this case or even in both cases possible contamination from the ground that they grow or live on being absorbed.

Much of what we consume, has possibly been treated one way or another with a chemical to keep it at its best etc, even home grown food could be grown in soil that contains harmful compounds, that sounds dramatic but it is one of those things that have been a reality in the real world.

@ maule5662h,

as you are aware, this is a forum for people who have concerns about Statins, many of the folk who visit it have already been taking them for some time and have finally found out the reason for all or most of their physical problems as well as the memory problems they have acquired. If you had any idea of the problems caused by Statins then you would also know that in many cases the ability to convert sunlight to Vitamin D has been compromised in these people, yes you need cholesterol in the conversion process. Although your cholesterol will rise again after stopping statins, that conversion process as well as many other processes have been severely damaged. I could go on about the problems but what's the point.

Meanwhile in the real world most of the people I know try to eat a varied diet, the downside is that they can only buy what they can afford and even then, they have no idea as to what additives or treatments their items including fruit and vegetables have underwent prior to buying them, that also includes many so called organic crops but as a Vegan you will be aware of such problems and know of reliable/safe sources of food as in farmers co-ops.

[eers]

I just wanted to note a couple of points while we are talking about the best diet for health. I would think a strong correlation between health and diet could be drawn from the world's longest lived people. It's been noted in a couple of books/studies that people like the Okinawans, Sardinians, etc all have some meat as well as dairy in their diet. Also, the China Study that was mentioned advocates a vegetarian diet but studies a culture that eats a substantial amount of meat.

Elsewhere on this site, there is mention of a study that shows the value of saturated fat and the limitations of a vegetarian diet (Indians from Madras consume much more vegetables if not completely vegetarian):

"According to Malhotra's report employees who lived in Madras had the highest mortality. It was six to seven times higher than in Punjab, the district with the lowest mortality, and they died at a much younger age. But people in Punjab ate almost seventeen times more fat than people from Madras and most of it was animal fat. In addition they smoked much more.(14)"

http://spacedoc.net/saturated_fat_is_good_for_you_2

[aeroguy]

Because David and Allen are both such good writers and back up their statements with credible evidence, I did some research.

Let's say, for the time being and for the sake of argument, that you are right and I am wrong.

I read a piece (see URL below) that says saturated fat has not been proven to cause heart disease. Again, let's say this is true. It also says that trans fat is very bad. Which is why butter is better than margarine.

Question (after you read the URL): EVEYRHTING is marked no trans fats. I understand the clear difference between trans and saturated fats, but I wonder how honest some of the packaging and food labels are that all say NO TRANS FATS.

[aeroguy]

Forgot to include the URL in my above post.

Here it is:

http://www.stop-trans-fat.com/trans-fat-and-saturated-fat.html

[Allen1]

Hi there aeroguy,

that's one heck of a good link you just provided

Off the top of my head I can recall ingredients in margarine for example being classed as vegetable oils or vegetable fat, if you recall from the link, that is what is converted into trans fat for use in cooking as in frying chips and baking etc. One margarine that I recall has 59% vegetable oil/fat as its main ingredient, there is no mention on the container about trans fat but it also boasts 60% less saturated fat than butter "I can't believe its not CRUD" may give a hint to which item I refer to.

Labelling has often been designed to be misleading, I am no expert on what goes into most processed or pre packed foods, if we knew half of what is in them then we probably wouldn't buy them, that even goes as far as to what treatment was used on the inside of a can to stop it affecting the contents.

Manipulation of words is what advertising is all about, you don't go out and buy a litre of trans fat or at least you don't think you are when you buy a litre of vegetable oil to do a little frying or whatever, lets face it if the vegetable oil was called Trans Fat the man made alternative, would you buy it?

As long as there is no law stating that all ingredients are to be listed then what you read on a label is always going to be questionable, even if a law exists then by using different wording, most folk will still be non the wiser as to what they are about to consume.

This is maybe why you went the vegetarian - Vegan way, the only problem apart from the animal fat issues is how the food you consume has been treated prior to it reaching you and in what medium you cook things in, basically the same problems as non Vegans.