trashing doctors

[pops]

Well, yeah, me and Lars are really coming up in the world. We had been pretty clever before, but then we got on statins and lost our mental acuity. But now that the statins are wearing off, we once again have rocket-scientist-like skill in the use of verbage.

Seriously, though, whole wheat toast is much better for you than statins. I'm sure of that.

I'd throw the Lipitor out, Lars. Unless you have an enemy you want to play a dirty trick on, such as in the following scenario:

"Your Honor, Lars poisoned me!" said the neighbor.
"No, I didn't, I just put statins in his food."
"See? He's trying to kill me!"
"Nope. I was just trying to help him clear his arteries!" said Lars.
"But look what statins did to me! Look at the side effects!"
Murmuring in the courtroom as the plaintive attempts to stand.
"He had a preexisting conditions which statins brought out," said Lars.
"Must be true. Case dismissed," said His Honor.

Pretty sure I saw that episode on Court TV®.

pOps


[quote="Allen1"]Hi there p0ps and Lars,

it looks like both of you are doing well in the thinking department
I bet a few months back, you would have struggled to find the right intellectual type wording that you are using so eloquently now in these recent posts, its good to see improvements, I just wished I was bright enough to know things like who was Ponce de Leon and the likes without having to revert to wikipedia

All the best,
Allen


Nice to see adec on the site too, I look forward to more posts from her [/quote]

[Allen1]

vicki,

I don't think that the treadmill tests give much information about the problems that statins have caused to an individual or nothing that looks too bad when looked at. I have had a few after my heart attack and then 8 years later before and after a triple bypass because I was still feeling drained all the time. While on the treadmill my heart rate and pulse were mainly steady with the odd blip every so often, but when the tests ended and I wasn't exerting myself the strong palpitations started again and was recorded as I was still wired up on most occasions. The reasons for ending a test was because I had no energy left to continue after a short period as well as the aches in my legs and breathlessness, I don't think that these problems get picked up in this test, if they are there was nothing mentioned.

Unfortunately, there are still thousands of Specialist, Doctors and even Nurses who are brainwashed into the Statins are the the miracle cure for just about everything religion. In there hands that is a disaster and we are the ones who will pay for their ignorance or should that be greed in many cases.

Here in the UK doctors or practices get paid bonuses to achieve target Cholesterol numbers. That smacks of someone who implemented this, is either incompetent, a fool or maybe getting financial incentives to have everyone taking this product. I think you know the answer ie they are now probably very wealthy incompetent fools!


Hi there Lars,

that book sounds fascinating, it is a long time since I have read a real book though as I still get really tired just reading a page or two and have to stop, I have reading glasses but that doesn't stop the tiredness. The corruption and way things are dealt with is worldwide, if we knew what out food was made of, I don't think many of us would be buying processed food unless it was the only thing available, there again look at all the genetically altered crops being used, here in the UK they are now saying it is OK to eat products from cloned cows. No-one knows what the effect this will have on the human population in a few years time, maybe by then it will already be too late.

Greed is going to be mankind's downfall and that about sizes it all up



Hi there pOps,

I used to be good at fixing cars etc or even electronic devices like computers and even used to make my own circuit boards for light sequencers for fairground rides or just repair some of the stuff a friend would bring along that no-one else could fix. Nowadays I look at things and wonder how I managed to do that, some things have recently started to make sense on good days, but on the whole I find that doing anything that is taxing in the thought department will soon make me very tired, anything that requires a bit of muscle power is a no go area too.

Ah the wonders of this amazing creation called Statins, where would we be without it!

All the best,
Allen

[vicki]

Allen: I know the treadmill shows nothing, I want the dye test, what ever that is called. The doctor wouln't listen to anything I say or ask for, he knows everything. My friend had all the other tests and he demanded the dye test, he knew something was wrong. All the other tests showed nothing, the dye test, after, they rushed him into surgery, 4 blockages.

I don't think they will ever take statins off the market. One thing is, people are not complaining about side effects to the FDA, Doctors are not doing their jobs and turning into the FDA. Not that the FDA does it's job either, so what can we do except tell others about the side effects and a lot of people don't listen until they hurt.

Last week I spent $1500 + out of my pocket just trying to get over the problems statins have created for me, not to mention the thousands and thousnads for almost 16 years now. I know we all have spent lots. I am to the point I am trying a naturlist, he doesn't believe in more drugs. I also had major problems from taking Metformin, (Lactic acitosis) which I was put on becasue of Statins causing my type 2 diabetes. One thing after another and no doctors ever believe anything I say. I went off Metformin and my blood prssure seems to of went down to normal, I'll see. I had severe breathing problems on Statins and now I believe from the Metformin. Since off Metformin, I can breath better for now, I'll see. I think I am just one of those people that shouldn't take medications, I get severe side effects for some reason.

[Allen1]

Hi there Vicki,

the dye test you mention is one of the things I had done. The cardiologist numbs the area inside the top of your right leg and inserts a flexible tube to deliver the dye in the areas around the heart using xrays to guide it via a monitor screen. You don't really feel anything and you are awake and lying down on your back, I had 1 complete blockage from my earlier heart attack and a further 2 80% blockages and 1 50% blockage, I had to use the GNT spray to open the arteries as they were to narrow for the procedure. I have to say that my cardiologist was shocked at the findings, I got the impression that he thought I was a hypochondriac until then.

Without that test, the blockages would not have come to light, the real shame of it is that statins killed off the benefits that getting them sorted should have given me, the only good thing about being in the UK, is that healthcare is free for everyone, the way this bunch of clowns that are now in government at the moment will no doubt change that at the first opportunity though.

Its bed for me now so All the best, Allen

[lars999]

GADS Allen!! You gotta have been in upper percentile of living persons for extent of plugged arteries!! Rather a "hard to kill old codger".

Lars

[pops]

Lars:

You promised you'd post the formula that brought your 100 year old mother back from certain statin-induced death.

Where is it?

We wait. We breathe. We twiddle our thumbs. No formula!



pOps

[lars999]

pOps,

That was adec that promised to give us the formula for fountain of youth. See quote below.

We will understand if you blame mix up on statins.

Lars


[quote="adec"]You can turn the clock back though. The fountain of youth is right under your feet. My mother recovered 100 percent from a near death after experiencing statin poisoning due to Lipitor. Probably will cost you a week's supply of Lipitor, if not less. I now see the average doctor as nothing more than Bernie Madoff in a white labcoat. Check back in a while and I will formulate it for you.[/quote]

[pops]

Lars:

Okay, fine, no magic cure today!

Maybe next week when Ponce comes to us in a dream.

For now I'm thinking red wine. I know this guy, exercises in water several times a week. I made a bet with him that I was older - and lost big time. He's 4 years older than me (and I'm older than the hills).

What's his elixir? He drinks red wine every night and he exercises regularly.

And of course, he does *not* take statins.

So red wine it is. Maybe add coq10 for us statin sufferers.
Or, that's probably as good as it gets.

pOps

[quote="lars999"]pOps,

That was adec that promised to give us the formula for fountain of youth. See quote below.

We will understand if you blame mix up on statins.

Lars


[quote="adec"]You can turn the clock back though. The fountain of youth is right under your feet. My mother recovered 100 percent from a near death after experiencing statin poisoning due to Lipitor. Probably will cost you a week's supply of Lipitor, if not less. I now see the average doctor as nothing more than Bernie Madoff in a white labcoat. Check back in a while and I will formulate it for you.[/quote][/quote]

[lars999]

OK, so now I can see my next big purchase, a few cases of red wine. Otherwise, how will a meagre 70-year old be able to keep up with the 96ers and centurians?

Anyone know how to get health insurance to pay for red wine? They paid for 6+ years of Lipitor, so, why not? Seems only medically appropriate. What is chemical or pharacudical name of that active ingredent in red wine that keeps frenchies and itallianer going for so many years?

When is Pfizer gonna come out with a prescription version of red wine? Probably cost $200,00 a 750 ml bottle. Maybe we can all sign up as test subjects in big NIH clinical study.

Lars

[pops]

They won't do it. Can't patent it, no money in it, doesn't matter how good it is for you, they ain't gonna invest a dime in it.

And worse than that, they'll do everything they can to get you to believe that taking it is a waste of time. Don't want the competition.

It's called disinformation. And oh, they are so very good at it!

But I got enlightened the hard way. It's called pain. Didn't have to read anything by the Dalai Lama. Didn't have to meditate for a year in the Himalayas. All I had to do is take statins for a little while.

Then it came to me, like a light bulb going off in my head: "This hurts like h_ll!"



Now I'm enlightened.

So pass the red wine, Lars. Forget the pills. They'd screw it up somehow. You know they would. Or charge ten bucks per pill.

And, if we do get a little tipsy, maybe we'll forget the myopathy.

Wouldn't *that* be nice!

pOps





[quote="lars999"]OK, so now I can see my next big purchase, a few cases of red wine. Otherwise, how will a meagre 70-year old be able to keep up with the 96ers and centurians?

Anyone know how to get health insurance to pay for red wine? They paid for 6+ years of Lipitor, so, why not? Seems only medically appropriate. What is chemical or pharacudical name of that active ingredent in red wine that keeps frenchies and itallianer going for so many years?

When is Pfizer gonna come out with a prescription version of red wine? Probably cost $200,00 a 750 ml bottle. Maybe we can all sign up as test subjects in big NIH clinical study.

Lars[/quote]

[lars999]

pOps,

Don't make too big a bet about Pfizer not coming out with prescription version of red wine!! Read about what in going on with fish oil in this thread I started recently --- http://www.spacedoc.net/board/viewtopic.php?t=1834
IF it can happen to fish oil, you red wine lovers maybe need to be careful spreading the word about red wine. Or snuggle up to Pfizer.

You might also hedge your bets and think up a few snazzy names for a Rx version of red wine -- then take that list to Pfizer and lick a few shoes. Might get you in a win-win situation. Pfizer might even make you a poster boy for the benifits of Rx red wine to remove adverse side effects of Lipitor.

Lars

[adec]

Sorry, I had a lengthy response prepared, which was then lost due to a rare computer crash. I'll have to try again soon. BTW, I am a guy. For the record, I have never or will ever use the word cure.

[pops]

Sure Lars, Pfizer here we come. Bootlicking. Mmm. Good shoe polish.

Those Pharma people are definitely my fav now that I've tasted their wares. Fool me once, shame on you, and all that.

I'm pretty sure I'll never trust a doctor again. Unless my life is on the line and I have no choice.

As for red wine and fish oil, we don't need RXs for those. Screw the (blanks), I'll take the OTC versions rather than their highway robbery schtick.

BTW, tried glucoasmine, and it *increased* the pain. Go figure.

Another BTW, you see the movie The Fugitive? It's about a galddarned statin! I kid you not!

Have a great day.
E Illegitimus No Carborundum Est
(don't let the bstrds wear you down)

pOps

[Allen1]

[quote="lars999"]GADS Allen!! You gotta have been in upper percentile of living persons for extent of plugged arteries!! Rather a "hard to kill old codger".

Lars[/quote]

The triple bypass I had after the dye test had found the blockages should have made me reasonably fit, but the statins killed off any benefit that the operation had done. As with the rest of us, I didn't know the reason why I was going downhill health wise till it was too late. The amount of tests that proved nothing conclusive before the op and after is obscene, all because of those little miracle pills called statins.

I wonder how many millions of pounds or dollars are being wasted every year because of the stupid statin therapy fiasco. Here in the UK we don't pay for treatment, elsewhere it may be different like in the USA. This is totally scandalous when the medical profession who prescribe this junk will also be the ones who are sending their damaged goods for all those tests and must see a link becoming apparent since the intervention of this wonder therapy. Madness!

All the best,
Allen

[pops]

Just curious, Allen, but prior to your requiring a bypass, were you exercising and watching your diet (IE: cutting out sat/trans fat, eating lots of fruits and veges and whole grains etc.)?

And in the absence of statins post bypass, and with the wisdom of hindsight working for you now, what would you take to make sure your arteries don't clog again?

pOps

[lars999]

pOps,

I applaud your question "what would you take to make sure your arteries don't clog again?" I am pursuing same issue, only that mine have very little or no plaque and never did, at least based on all measurements made thus far.

At moment I am "playing the field", following Linus Pauling's approach of using large amounts (read his and Rauth's Unified Theory Of Cardiovascular Disease), Kilmer McCully's Homocysteine Theory, and the current developing ideas about inflammation in artery walls, oxidation/inflammation of lipoproteins, etc. as the initiator of damage to arterial walls, which our bodies try to "bandaid" crudely with "plaque".

RANT MODE ON
The whole cholesterol BS/CON/SCAM (pick you favoriate noun!) does not figure into my readings and attempts to understand (as you might expect from a fellow victim of statins).

As regards fats, I agree with you about transfats, at least those created by adding hydrogen molecules to unsaturated fats. Re naturally saturated fats, NOT oxidized by exposure to O2 at high temps, I find Uffe Ravenskov's treatise on fats and cholesterol (Saturated Fat and Cholesterol Are GOOD For You!!) on solid scientific footing -- recommend reading it. SO much really bad information out there about fats, especially from vegans, vegitarians and the big drug, processed food industries and their lacky nutrition experts and doctors. IF not for all that really bad information, there we would not be statin victims.
RANT MODE OFF

Lars

[lars999]

Hello Allen!

I view the entire medical industry as in collusion to maximize total income for all of them. Ordering lots of expensive tests is an excellent way to "spread the wealth". IF you have been following much of USA's "health care debate" you could easily have learned just how huge a financial burden all these tests are on the economy, personal, state, federal, etc., etc.

And USA doctors want to limit time of each visit to 15 minutes or less, and, of course, to order up as many expensive tests, perscriptions, etc. as possible.

I happen to have a health insurance company that serves a large but diligent group of individuals. It is routine to see a charge for a given test that is $300, $1000- or more and then see what the negotiated sum is that my insurance actually pays. It is common for that $300 to become $92,74 or $67,51, etc. I laugh every time I receive such a document from my insurance!! I also get a little disgusted ...............

Lars

[pops]

I have read what Linus Pauling said. Basically vitamin C and lysine.
Unfortunately I've known people who took large amounts of C and still had a heart attack. This makes me wonder if the vit C hypothesis is true.

Of course I know of a man who started taking statins even though he was healthy and died of a heart attack 4 days later. Coincidence? No way to know. I know what statins did to me. My instinct tells me had I finished the 90 day RX I would be pushing up daisies now. I was going downhill fast on the garbage.

I don't know the answer about saturated fats. I know trans fats are bad. Are natural saturated fats okay? Is the medical industry lying to us about that? Since I learned truths about statins, I'm not sure of anything anymore. I think I'd be careful. Who are the longest lived societies? How much saturated fats do they eat? What's their diet like? Exercise? Stress levels? We can learn from them. Again, I don't know answers, only questions.

I met a man today who is 70 and looks healthier and younger than me. I'm 63. He walks a lot, eats whatever he wants - McDonalds, Taco Bell, anything. He takes a senior multivitamin and nothing else. And he doesn't worry about his health. His wife is really into herbs and supplements and is always running to the doctor.

Makes me think of Occam's Razor: the simplest answer is usually the answer. If the above has an answer in it, it would be this:

-Exercise regularly and moderately (such as walking)
-Take a multiple vitamin/mineral for your age group
-Eat a wide variety of food
-Quit worrying about your health

Now, while I'm not a doctor, the above advice would nicely fit into the Hippocratic oath: At least do no harm. And since doctors no longer are using the Hippocratic oath, I figure I can borrow it.

Have a nice day. Hope all your suffering diminishes. E illegitimus no carborundum est.

pOps

[lars999]

pOps,

To a large extent I am hedging my bets when I "play the field" re theorys about what causes cardiovascular disease and how to avoid it. One does not have to read a great stack of reports and books to suspect that there are many things that contribute to cardiovascular disease -- that is part of what makes many of us view the simplestic "cholesterol hypothesis" as absurd and just plain wrong.

Even the most knowledgable medical and biochemists rate Kilmer McCully's homocysteine hypothesis as explaining only about 40% of causes of cardiovascular disease. There is so much biochemical common sense in Linus Pauling's unified theory of cardiovascular disease that I have to think that it too is valid explanation in some significant fraction of cases.

In many regards, Kilmer's homocysteine theory is a precursor to current thinking that inflammation is the ""big baddy". In recent years there are folks that consider what good statins do (at least for some individuals) is because statins have some presently ill-defined anti-inflammatory properties -- NOT because they so drastically lower cholesterol (and CoQ10, dolichols, etc.), leading to all the nasty adverse side effects we all know so well. Where will this lead in 10, 20, years? No one I read or hear about seems to have a good idea.

Back to fats. Yes, it appears that natural saturated fats are not bad, even if humans eat them extensively -- Eskimoes' native diet with lots of whale blubber, ect. and Masai's diet of lots of milk and red meat, are the two most extreme. Then there are the French with all their ummy, fat-rich foods --- and red wine gets the credit for their short fall of heart attacks -- and keeps all those "cholesterol theory" nuts from looking as erronious as they really are -- French Paradox -- ha!!.

As best I can tell, and IF I remember correctly, fats got their bad rap in part because some biochemical ignorami did dietary studies using vegatible oils that had been highly hydrogenated (instead of natural animal fats) and found a bunch of "bad" effects.

Frankly, I grew up eating lots of lard, meats of all kinds, including organ meats, tons of fatty sausages, whole milk, butter, cream, etc. and my total cholesterol, when first measured in my 30s was below 200. Yes, we had gardens and lots of fresh veggies in season, and not much "white bread", lots of good rye and black russian bread. Now that I am back to eating those foods again, my cholesterol number is again 200 (it got as high as 300+). And, no tests to date have found more than very minor plaque, if even that, and it is the "flat", fiberous plaque that maybe really is homo saipans' best attempt at "bandaids" made "in vivo". I also have a family history with almost no heart attacks or cardiovascular disease that needed/got treatment. I am "only" 70 now and have relatives that lived into their 90s and were still physically and mentally active -- hope I am too. Happily, I am back to skiing, downhill and cross country up in mountains and progressing back towards previous levels!!!

Lars

[lars999]

Here is excellent report about what actually causes or prevents growth of plaques in arteries.

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no3/colpo.pdf

Lars