The Lipitor lawsuits

[Brian C.]

Anyone heard anything about the two lawsuits filed last year described here?:

*http://www.adrugrecall.com/news/lipitor-lawsuit.html

Pfizer said they would fight "aggressively"
That means NASTY

Brian.

[cjbrooksjc]

Brian: This is, for me, a forest for the trees thing because I knew nothing about these suits. My chief complaint is with Zocor, BUT there is a "call this number to speak with an attorney" link at the end of this verbiage for Lipitor complainants(sp?). Any U.S. Lipitor folks in the forum who want to speak to an attorney?

In any case this is encouraging activity and something many of us have been wondering about: "why no lawsuits?".

Oh, yes, I nearly forgot. I kept an appointment with Dr. Langsjoen (Statin antagonist) two days ago. Have another appt in two months. They did an echo-cardio and EKG, found heart muscle impairment consistant with Statin damage, took blood to testy for CoQ10 levels, etc.

The end prognosis was "We can get you back to where you were before Statins". That was good to hear. 1st step was (as a result of the blood test) stop taking Vit E (too much interferes with the absorbtion of Ubiquinone). Order one of the 'tested', by a lab associated with Dr. Langsjoen from *www.iherb.com specifically: Jarro Reduced Ubiquinone in 100 mg caps & take two 3X daily.

I'll keep

Brooks


Thanks,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Brian: Sorry, a bit stormy here; lost my link. Anyway, I 'll keep all appraised of the continuing results of my treatment. Next appt is not until July 20th. They will then check my heart again and my CoQ10 levels. We'll see.

Regards,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Brian: Drat! I can't seem to get all this in one message. I am also to buy and take selienium caps at the mdr dosage.

Brooks

[Brian C.]

"We can get you back to where you were before Statins"

Sounds good Brooks!

I am surprised and pleased that my heart muscle feels so much better than my upper arms now after nearly 2 months off the Incapacitating Agent.

Interesting to hear Dr Langsjoen's recommendation, I use several of the Jarrow Formulas supplements which are available here in the UK. I see that Jarrow have released 2 new formulations, Q-absorb Co-Q10 and Ubiquinol QH-Absorb. I assume it is the second of these that you are referring to?

Also interesting to hear about too much Vit E interfering with Ubiquinone absorbtion, I am currently taking Now Advanced Gamma E Complex 500mg 3 times daily which I assumed assists in CoQ-10 assimilation. I wonder if I should stop this

I've been wondering about adding selenium, also D-Ribose.

Brian.

[cjbrooksjc]

Brian: Yes, the UBQH Abssorb is the recommended one. As for the Vit E - it came as a total surprise to me. I was taking about 1600 to 2000 IUs of Vit E daily thinking it was as harmless as Vit C and a good antioxident. As a result of the blood test they told me to stop; of course I will.

I'm off now to buy Selenium (my kitchen cupboard looks like Dr. Jeckel's lab). I'll wait on the D-Ribose though - I'm taking some glyconutrients now (Nutratose brand) and will finish them off, but I don't plan to buy more. I asked Langsjoen about glyconutrients & he was fairly non-committal. For now I'm going to follow his instructions as though he were GOD and they were a plan for certain salvation.

Regards,

Brooks

[Brian C.]

I figure since I have CHD the old ticker needs all the nutrients it can get

Yes, Langsjeon is one for the Pantheon.


Brian

[bucho]

Brooks,
Many thanks for posting Dr. Lansgeon's suggestions and prognosis. Disseminating that type of information is the most valuable aspect of this very helpful forum.

As a result of your recent posts I now realize that I need to change my fish oil capsules, which are relatively high in vitamin E.

I have experienced major improvement since passing the one-year anniversary of quitting zocor. In an earlier post I suggested the "Tree Ring Theory" that once you get a full annual cycle of cell reproduction and growth between you and the statin, things begin to improve markedly. Well, whatever the reason, in the past 3 weeks I have enjoyed feelings of vitality, robustness and intensity like when I was in my 30's! I wonder if the supplements are taking me to a higher level than pre-zocor. For the first time, I have just gone two entire weeks without the previously-incessant tinnitus. My 24-7 jaw tremor is much reduce and completely gone some of the time.

Simply stated, even after several months of recovery, where the glaring problems like muscle pain were reduced, it still "hurt" to be alive. Any form of thought or experience, even daydreaming, or eating, was at times unpleasant because it demanded mental energy that I just didn't have. Last week I realized that it no longer hurts to be alive. Numerous intangible and indescribable aspects of daily life experience are suddenly pleasant, simple, and natural again. Once again living is becoming "automatic" as it was in youth. The appetite for challenge and the ability to endure even the mundane are coming back.

Based on what's happened to me recently, I am more convinced than ever that STATINS ERODE ONE'S LIFE EXPERIENCE IN WAYS THAT FDA TRIALS CANNOT MEASURE. This is their most insidious action on our population, because it is serving as a camouflage for this very dangerous chemical. When we take statins, we are like the "frog in the pot." We may not notice the damage until it's too late. (Even though the frog is free to leap out at any time, if you heat the water very gradually he never notices and remains in the pot until he is boiled to death.)

[cjbrooksjc]

bucho: I'm happy my post encouraged you. I must say; however, your post encouraged me even more. Dr. Langsjoen's assurance is comforting but not as inspiring as the real-life experience you relate. It does help to confirm his confidence in my prognosis though. Congratulations and best wishes for continued improvement!

Regaring your "I wonder if the supplements are taking me to a higher level than pre-zocor." remark... I've considered that possibility before and can only hope the upside of Statins is that we all live better, more fulfilling lives as a result of these supplements. At worst we'll all make GREAT Soylent Green candidates!

Regards,

Brooks

[Biologist]

"Brooks,
Many thanks for posting Dr. Lansgeon's suggestions
and prognosis. Disseminating that type of information
is the most valuable aspect of this very helpful forum."
--bucho

I second the sentiments, and further, hereby nominate Brooks as 2007 Forum MVP (i.e., "Most Valuable Player," for non-sports fans). Good info !

I just stocked up last week with $250 worth Sam's Club Co-Q10. I will just "supplement that supplement" based on Brook's findings from Dr. Lansgeon. I will also immediately suspend any separate and additional Vitamin E supplementation (400 units), since as bucho mentioned, it shows up in my Fish Oil -- and also in my CoQ10 capsules themselves.

Great to hear about your progress, bucho!

Biologist

[Biologist]

BTW, I know everyone's going to love the irony here:

It appears, based on some cursory Internet research (yes, I use to have more interesting things to do on a Friday night... ) that excess Vitamin E "out competes" CoQ10 molecules in procuring necessary carriers for their travels throughout the blood stream to reach all our cells (since both molecules are "oil-based" where the blood is "water-based," they must have the special carrier, just like cholesterol molecules). So what is this vital and necessary carrier that is in such high demand? -- now wait for it...

You guessed it:

The "Evil" LDL Molecule!!!

The "Bad" One!!!

Incredible.

BigPharma, I have to give it to you. You take the cake: "Oh what a web we weave...

Biologist

[bucho]

Wow!

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: So that's why I was told to quit the Vit E. They emailed me a PDF chart with my test results and the Vie E, showing up as a HUGE spike right next to CoQ10 on the chart, was completely OFF THE PAGE; as wide at the top where it left the chart as CoQ10 was at the bottom where it (CoQ10) began its climb. I guess it's like CoQ10 and Vit E both want to catch an LDL cab downtown to work, but CoQ10 can't get anywhere near the curb for all the Vit E hailers. Who knew? And LDL provides the transportation... what a world, what a world. Nanites, we need nanites!

Oh, and Thanks for the award nomination... my kids will be so proud!

Regsrds,

Brooks

[Brian C.]

Brooks, I am sure you will wear it with grace and dignity :wink:

Thank you very much Biologist for that extremely valuable information, I have put a prompt stop on the Vit E!

It does make sense that the primary transport for fat-soluble vitamins is LDL.
Ally that to the fact that cholesterol is essential for Vit D synthesis and we see further evidence that lowering cholesterol is contra-health.

Brian.

[Biologist]

This MAY be an argument for moderation on almost anything "oil based" at least for those immediately recovering from statins -- whether that be months or years. Beta Carotene (Vitamin A) is something that I only take every other day, or so (it has been controversial for other reasons). I will likely cut it down to half that much. But this just to be on the "safe side" (as an only half educated guess) as the good of "emergency" CoQ10 for cell function -- particularly energy -- may outweigh more long-term concerns for optimal cellular and tissue heath. First I want CoQ10 levels adequate or better "at all costs." I will only go the recommended minimum in Dr. Graveline's writings for fish oil too, for the same reason.

For the same reason I have decided to moderate my high Vitamin C supplementation (+/- 8 grams/day) for a while as its HMG CoA Reductase Inhibition (i.e., "down regulation") properties are something that I do not want to have to work into the equation right now -- even knowing it is likely OK to do such supplementation. I will likely go with 1 gram. (BTW, Brooks, thanks for pointing out that inhibition activity recently as I had missed it somehow, and also I have decided to putoff the experiment I described earlier for home testings as I believe that guy basically already did it.) Its long-range vascular health benefits will just have to wait some months or so, unless I change my mind for some reason.

Brooks, do you know when Dr. L. reached his conclusion about your Vitamin E supplementation levels? Was it during an interview up front that he recognized the concern of too much E right off the bat, or was it after he did some testing and was looking at the chart? Did I read that he is one of the few that can do such testing, or am I getting that confused with something else? Does he have the equipment in his office or does he send the blood samples out? Wonder if he can do sample testing from other states delivered to him sent from Dr's offices? If you get an opportunity next time you may want to run the "competition/LDL" thing by him for comment. If not, that's understandable as time may be very limited.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: Dr L. stated PRIOR to testing me that Vit E was a "dispoiler" of CoQ10 effectiveness in high, on-board amounts; the test simply confirmed I had developed a BOOMER of an overdose of Vit E. The CoQ10 testing lab is either in his office proper or in a room(s) next door - the sign on the building lists both his name and the CoQ10 testing lab together. He said it was dificult to do testing thru the mail since the blood had to be fresh (cooling problems); I didn't ask him this (thru the mail) question, it simply came out during conversation. As for the competition/LDL thing - it seems reasonable to conclude that is the exact reason for the Vit E caution. The CoQ10 part of the discussion went something like "Ubiquinone levels can be high but it (UBQ) still may not be getting used properly by the body" That's a paraphrase, but close to what he said; so, Biologist's LDL transport explaination makes perfect sense. I won't see him again until late July, but I'll ask the ? then. Oh, and did I forget to mention 200mg Selenium daily?

Regards,

Brooks

[Biologist]

That was helpful, Brooks. You didn't, by any chance, get a feel for whether it was ONLY Vit E that is the culprit or if there may be other offenders such as fish oil, did you?

"Ubiquinone levels can be high but it (UBQ)
still may not be getting used properly by
the body"

So this would presumably be the argument for the reduced form of UBQ that he has recommended -- it must be more available to the cells. I still do not know where UBQ is typically made (i.e., the liver? inside each and every cell?) or how it ultimately gets into the mitochondria of the cells -- via a transport helper molecule like a carnitine? I am aware that it circulates in the blood, but like cholesterol, there may be multiple places that it is made perhaps including in most cells? Anyway, just musing on that. I will be looking for such an explanation but somehow I had picked up the idea that it was not an easy process -- that there was a "bottle neck" in the supplementation pipeline. Apparently it is a big molecule. I have wondered if it can even get by the blood brain barrier. That would be an excellent question for Dr. L. I ordered 10 bottles of the stuff and will take the same doses that he recommended for you.

You mentioned Selenium. I have been taking it for a couple of months and also Iodine in the form of Kelp. Apparently iodine is known to be low in most people according to some accounts. You may want to keep your ears open for it or just buy some. I think it was pretty reasonably priced as I remember. BTW, you meant mcg not mg for the units on the stuff. Iodine is dosed in the same units.

Thanks again for finding this invaluable info. I think it may be more important than we would like to think. It is possible all our UBQ supplementation, while expensive, has been of minimal value to us. Hate to think that, but it is possible. But should be fixed now.

Biologist

[cjbrooksjc]

Boilogist: Fer as I know Ubiquinone is made in only one place - the mevalonate pathway (CPY3A4) in the liver. xrn has a good, functional schematic of this activity showing Statins' 'squeezing' effect at the very begining (top) of the process. UBQ, Dichol, and Hem-a, and other elements are produced farther down this pathway (as you can see), and a reduction in ANY ONE of them can have adverse effects on the body. Dr. L DID say the UBQ he recommended is more easily absorbed and used by the body. And yes, I meant mcg; not mg of Selenium. Also, I didn't mean to refer you to yourself a bit earlier in the note; guess I forgot who I was writing.

xrn's Mevalonate schematic is found at his "Talking Statins" site here:

*http://talkingstatins.com/page14/page13/page13.html

Remove the "Mary, mary, quite contrary went out on the ice to frisk. She fell in, but then went skating again, her little *" before you paste the link.

(I've not gone mad. It's a little memory cue to remember how to pronounce *. You will never forget.)

Regards,

Brooks

[cjbrooksjc]

Biologist: addendum - Dr. L didn't mention anything as an inhibitor other than Vit E.


Brooks

[Biologist]

Hi, Brooks.

I did not mean to put you on the spot to try to tactfully respond to some of my naive sounding questions. I did not do a very good job with them. You did well though. :)

I will explain my questions better later. I have been doing some research and will write things up in a post for this thread. Maybe not today though.

Biologist