Carnitine or Acetyl-L-Carnitine?

[BSGfan]

Good day.

Following a Lopid-Niacin-Mevacor interaction in July '06 I have had some persistent aching and burning sensations along the right side of my face and jaw.

I am interested in supplementing with Carnitine to see if it relieves some
of this discomfort and was wondering after seeing references to Carnitine or Acetyl-L-Carnitine on this board if there is a difference between the two types and which is considered best.

[adec]

Good morning BSGfan.

In simplest terms, acetyl L-carnitine is better able to cross the blood-brain barrier, due to the acetyl component. Especially as we age enzyme production required for acetylation becomes limited. This would adversely affect both the metabolism and efficacy of the L-carnitine component. Otherwise carnitine resides mostly in muscles and would not be uniformly distributed throughout the body.

Of course, the first line of defense against statin damage is always reversing the depletion of CoQ10. Otherwise, I would use acetyl L-carnitine exclusively, but especially if you're older and have suffered statin-induced cognitive loss. If cost is a factor, you can purchase acetyl L-carnitine as a bulk powder.

Here are 500 grams of acetyl L-carnitine for $24.99, or good enough for 1 year of supplementation at 1.5 grams a day. You will need to cut and paste this link into your browser.
*http://www.bulknutrition.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=acetyl+l-carnitine+powder

Just place a little in a drink, or swallow it with water. I equate the taste with that of pungent and slightly rotting limes. A slightly packed 1/2 teaspoon should equal approximately 1.5 grams. I would also combine carnitine with alpha lipoic acid. This would help to decrease the oxidative stress created by such large doses of carnitine, among other beneficial things. Together they have a very synergistic effect.

I've posted this as a general answer for anyone who happens to come across it.

[Ray Holder]

I believe that L carnitine (or free carnitine) is the one to use to prevent muscle wastage, acyl (acetyl) carnitine is needed to remove used energy production products from the muscle and prevent pain from lactic acidosis.

Carnitine level measurements are in the two forms, free and acyl, for folk with carnitine deficiency. Fernando Scaglia quotes L carnitine as a cure.

L Carnitine is also available as a bulk powder, at least from Bulk Nutrition.

Ray

[adec]

If you were to supplement along with an acetyl donor -- such as acetylcholine, for instance -- this in probability would assist regular L carnitine (and other nonacetylated amino acids) in crossing the blood-brain barrier, and overall increasing retention.

Here's an interesting excerpt from an interview with Tory M. Hagen, Ph.D. at the Linus Pauling Institute concerning the differences between L-carnitine and aceytl L-carnitine. He answers the question as a biochemist and biophysicist. The whole article in fact is worth reading.
*http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss04/ageessential.html

Q: Commercial supplements of carnitine are usually found as L-carnitine or
acetyl-L-carnitine. What's the difference between these?

A: Carnitine is a derivative of lysine, an amino acid, and
acetyl-L-carnitine has an acetyl group attached to carnitine. Acetylation of
carnitine can arise naturally in the body through normal metabolic
processes. The body can absorb carnitine, especially from meats, but the
acetyl group increases absorption. Both forms are effective and eventually
get into the body as carnitine, but the acetyl form seems to be a little bit
better absorbed and distributed more universally within the body, whereas
carnitine tends to end up in muscle tissue. In our animal studies, we've
used acetyl-L-carnitine almost exclusively.

[Ray Holder]

Adec
I have a deficiency of carnitine firstly because of excessive need after recovery from polio, when fat becomes more necessary for muscle fuel, and secondly because statins have reduced my natural production of it.

I was recommended the use of carnitine by the W Australia Polio Network who have measured body levels before and after carnitine supplementation on hundreds of post polios. I have not been able to get such measurement in UK, but my CK level rises from 200 to 500 in the absence of carnitine use.

When first using it, I tried acetyl carnitine, and got no benefit at all from it. I need it to end up in muscle tissue because that is my point of need, I have little interest in the blood brain barrier, muscle weakness is my major concern, and I suspect that that is where those with statin induced muscle pain from lactic acidosis also need it, to avoid wastage, although acetyl C seems to alleviate the pain.

The Linus Pauling work on carnitine and cardiac problems has not taken the enormous influence of Q10 into consideration, I believe my near heart failure was caused in the first instance by a combination of Q10 and carnitine deficiency due to post polio and age depletion, angina occurring at late evening when sugar levels have run low and fat and carnitine have to play an increasing part.( I read that 60% of total heart energy comes from fat), so carnitine presence in heart muscle is important. Both it and Q10 supplementation are totally necessary for my continuing existence, and I am loath to add further supplements ad lib without a known need or demonstrable effect made visible. I have tried some recommended items, such as alpha lipoic acid, no benefit, and D ribose, on which the jury is still out, but optimising my two major supplements is quite a task, and brand deficiencies only become apparent after about 2 weeks use, so too many variables only cloud the important issues.

Ray

[adec]

Ray, I was writing that information in general, for anyone happening to come across it. I'm glad you have found something that works. Your gut instinct is more important than all of these studies combined. Here's to your continued good health. I also hope we somewhat answered the original poster's question.

[Darrell]

I have been successfully dodging this issue by taking half acetyl- and half propionyl-. Propionyl-L-carnitine was shown in some studies to be better absorbed than straight L-carnitine. The propionyl- is more expensive, but I prefer it because it is made by Sigma-Tau, a company that also makes Carnitor (the prescription carnitine). I buy both through VitaCost.com. The propionyl- is the Jarrow Formulas "GPLC" product.

[BSGfan]

Personal progess note: I have been supplementing with Co Enzyme Q-10 in the 200 mg range daily and also with acetyl-L-carnitine in the 250 mg range. So far I am finding it quite beneficial in reducing my statin induced burning and cramping along my jawline. The Q-10 in particular seems quite helpful. The immediate effect from the carnitine seems to be a bit of a stimulating effect.

I also have issues with pre-diabetes, foot neuropathy, and fatty liver syndrome. I have heard acetyl-L-carnitine may also be of benefit with these symptoms as well. Has anyone here heard of any references to this?

I am also taking Tenormin a.k.a. Atenolol 50 mg daily, a beta blocker for high blood pressure. Does anyone know if there any any interaction precautions with acetyl-L-carnitine or co-enzyme Q-10? I haven't been able to find any references on the internet.

I am considering taking the herbal supplement Milk Thistle to improve liver function. Anyone know of any pertinent interactions with any or all of the above substances?

So far I have found that a low-carb, low-fat diet as well as a more than 40 pound weight loss has helped quite a bit with the liver and pre-diabetes issues.

[adec]

I personally would seek out the more safe and effective nattokinase and/or vitamin K2 (particularly MK-7, or Menaquinone-7) to treat high blood pressure. Otherwise yes, CoQ10 can increase the effect of any blood pressure medication, so definitely decrease your dosage. There shouldn't be any problems with Milk Thistle. Also great for liver function is Curcumin, in particular Super Bio-Curcumin (BCM-95.)

Atenolol itself can decrease circulating levels of CoQ10 in the blood. Therefore, if you decide to discontinue Atenolol treatment, make sure to slowly wean yourself off the medication, and consult with your doctor first.

As for diet, eat more fish and salads. Eat more vegetable than animal protein. Eat more complex carbohydrates instead of refined carbs and sugars. You can substitute white bread for great tasting whole white wheat bread... I personally recommend Stroehmann's Soft & Tasty. A great tasting and natural sugar substitute is Erythritol, even if it's super expensive at $6 per lb. I haven't found another substance as healthy or as close in taste to sugar.


I would try to limit sodium intake to below 2 grams per day. Also, fish oil and cinnamon are great ways to better regulate blood sugar. Good luck.

[adec]

Darryl, according to available studies proponyl indeed is the most bioavailable form of carnitine, followed closely by acetyl, and then plain carnitine. Also, for cognitive function check out Acetyl-L-Carnitine-Arginate (Arginocarn) or for muscle function Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine (Glycocarn,) both also made by Sigma-tau. Expensive, but worth every penny.

Another great way to greatly increase carnitine bioavailability is through coadministering acetylcholine supplementation, for instance Alpha GPC.

[Ray Holder]

BSGfan
I would suggest that blood pressure rise in the second half of life is most likely to be due to weakening of the heart filling phase due to age related reduction of Coenzyme Q10, (unless you have narrowed arteries). This raises BP due to back pressure. Then along comes the statin, reducing your Q10 further, worsening the situation, and atenolol, a beta blocker, reduces Q10 even further again.

Supplementary Q10 is needed to bring levels back up to a more suitable figure. Q10 is not a blood pressure lowering substance per se, but has a heart muscle strengthening ability as it increases the energy level available to the pumping muscle action. As a result. BP normalises, and the BP drug only drags the figure down beyond the required level.

I suspect that, as diabetics often get improvement from Q10 use, shortage of it could be reducing insulin production, giving rise to a pre diabetic condition. (See the addendum to my paper on *www.spacedoc.net/r_holder.html)

I manage to keep my blood pressure in order with Q10 and a vasodilator--isosorbide mononitrate, I have been able to dispense with two other BP drugs, but Q10 dosage must raise to meet the observed need, I take 800 mg a day, but I am 86.

Ray

[adec]

Ray you're a true inspiration. God bless you. And make sure you check out Fran's message to you below, titled "ATTN: Ray Holder (OT)," regarding 'SV40' and its association to polio vaccines.

[Ray Holder]

Thanks adec

Just a rather humorous aside on the value of Q10.

My daughter had the rat control officer in to deal with a rat problem, and rat poison was put down. Rats were then seen climbing up a tree to get at peanuts in the bird feeder. The control officer said that peanuts for bird food should be taken in when rat poison is being administered, as they act as an antidote to it. Pondering on the subject, I remembered that Q10 reduces the effect of coumadin, otherwise warfarin or rat poison, in those using it as a blood thinner. Peanuts are a source of Q10, although large quantities would be needed for human requirements, the rats seem able to sense this, and go for them!!!

Something has been lost in human evolution that we no longer can sense the things that will help us, but this shows that Q10 works for rats!!!

Ray

[Brian C.]

[quote="Ray Holder"]
Something has been lost in human evolution that we no longer can sense the things that will help us, but this shows that Q10 works for rats!!!

Ray[/quote]

That "something" is communal wisdom, supplanted by the politics of greed, the practitioners of which using considerable wealth and every trick in the book to keep us pliant consumers.

Brian.

[BSGfan]

So, is there any hazard in taking acetyl-l-carnitine and l-carnitine simultaneously?

It's been 3 or 4 days since my last 250 mg dosage of acetyl-l-carnitine...might be my imagination but I think it might be worsening my foot neuropathy symptoms.

Tried a couple dosages of a l-carnitine/co-enzyme Q-10 admixture available from GNC. My foot feels better and it did also seem to improve my facial cramping symptoms. It's now about 12 hours since my last dosage, and my cramping has returned a bit worse than before.

[uncle2blade]

BSGfan,

I take 500 mgs of Al Car, and 500mgs of L car together three times a day, along with 200 mgs of CoQ10 three times a day. If I miss a dose I know it.

Craig

[BSGfan]

I find taking too much Co-Enzyme Q-10 will cause the myopathy symptoms in the right side of my jaw and face to worsen for an hour or so, similar in sensation to a Niacin flush.

To minimize this, I will take multiple small doses throughout the day, such as 30 mg every 3 hours or so.

[adec]

BSGfan, You can reduce CoQ10 sides simply by taking less, and then coadminstering with certain supplements to increase absorption.

For instance, CoQ10 synthesis in the human body actually requires several different B vitamins (cyanocobalamin, folic acid, niacin, pantothenic acid, pyridoxine, riboflavin etc.) and vitamin C. Therefore to increase the bioavailability of CoQ10 simply take it alongside a multi-B vitamin, and vitamin C.

Also Bioperine, or black pepper extract, can greatly increase absorption of not only CoQ10, but many other vitamins, minerals, aminos, and enzymes.

*http://www.bioperine.com

Take care.

[BSGfan]

Had an interesting problem with a strong, intermittent muscle cramp in the base of the thumb of one hand, in between the thumb and the index finger. I could actually see the muscles twitch and pulse underneath the skin. This symptom appeared an hour or so after I had taken 250 mg of acetyl-l-carnitine. I stopped use of the ACL, and the cramps and twitches gradually subsided and stopped over the next four days. I imagine it could have been a new manifestation of my carpal tunnel syndrome, or that I might have unwittingly sprained my thumb with all the package carrying I've done in the last few days. But I find myself wondering if the acetyl-l-carnitine could have been a contributing factor. Most of the data I have on side effects just mentions nausea, elevated blood pressure and exciteability.

[Ray Holder]

Has anyone had problems with a bad batch of L Carnitine Powder, the usual sort is free running, like a fine salt, but I have had some recently which was more inclined to stick together and on to the spoon, with an off white colour. I found it to be totally ineffective, and only got back to normal with some of the other version. I wonder if it might have had unsuitable storage conditions, or become damp.

Ray