Do exercise & simple activities worsen muscle pain?

[jazzbird925]

Hi all.

I'm relatively new to this - I took no more than 6 weeks' worth of 2 different satins before stopping last month due to horrific shoulder & arm (most bicep) pain and popping. Arm mobility & flexibility is a problem too

I work out regularly but took a break from lifting light weights (5, 10, 12-1/2 pounds) since my arms and shoulders hurt so much.

I've discovered that simple things - carrying my purse, or groceries etc, washing the kitchen floor with a mop, vacuuming - all seem to worsen the pain within 24 hours. I feel like I've been lifting 100-pound weights.

I used a cross trainer for the first time in 10 days yesterday & paid a high price last night - severe arm/shoulder pain. Usually the pain & discomfort occur only with use or pressure (laying or leaning on an arm) but last night my right arm hurt horribly for hours. I'm on a regime of 100 mg of CO10 12 days ago but thus far, feel no improvement.

Has anyone else experienced delayed, increased pain after exercise, lifting, pushing etc?

Thank you in advance for any responses.

[flacorps]

Assuming you had incipient rhabdomyolysis, look up "rhabdo treatment" ... probably at this point the best thing to do is eat a lot of carbs at small meals throughout the day and gradually improve your strength with gentle, progressive strength training.

However, I would not want to dissuade anyone from seeing a doctor about this sort of situation.

[Ray Holder]

Hi Jazzbird
If you have muscle weakness from statin use, you are most probably have carnitine deficiency, a regular feature on this forum. In the absence of such symptoms as dark urine, I think you are far removed from rhabdomyolysis at the moment,. However, energetic exercise with carnitine deficiency will cause your muscles to consume their own protein to make the energy needed, and muscle wastage will occur.

Forget the weights for the time being and concentrate on keeping up more gentle movement, until the pain is under control, some supplemental carnitine will probably be necessary. Q10 supplementation in an insulin dependant diabetic is a bit tricky, as it can reduce sugar levels, and careful monitoring will be needed, but could be worth the effort, WITH GREAT CARE.

Ray

[Linda Paulhus]

Anything the causes the muscles to break down while exercising is very dangerous, ie weight lifting.

When the liver is damaged by statins, you have difficulty absorbing nutrients [into the liver], especially protein. Consequently, there is no correction to the damage.

Standard Process makes available Livaplex, which causes liver re-growth. In the meantime, soft excercise like Pilates, Yoga, walking, etc. to keep the circulation moving.

The muscle weakness from these drugs causes malabsorption and muscle deterioration.

[Darrell]

"Exercise intolerance" is a common effect of statin-induced muscle damage. Until I started carnitine, I had to rest for about two hours after each one hour of normal activity or I was messed up for a long time. (By normal activity, I mean things like walking -- not things like using a mop, vacuum cleaner or cross trainer.) I lived that way for 16 months. Disabled, basically. All that changed when I started taking carnitine.

I believe the muscle pain comes from lactic acid build-up that can't be removed at a normal rate. If you try to work with the pain, you will be damaging your muscles.

As for Q10, it helped me somewhat early-on, but I was taking as much as 600 mg per day. I still take 200 mg today, three years after stopping my statin. I still take 3,000 to 3,500 mg of carnitine each day in divided doses. If I don't, I get "exercise intolerance" in a matter of hours.

[nanato3]

I have sore shoulders , arm and neck pain from exercise. If I try and move or lift the smallest of things , I must be very careful or I will pay for it later with pain. Statins are terrible. I have cut my Lipitor down to half for a week now and feel 80% better already. Brain fog and short term memory loss is so much better. I am planning on stopping the Statin all together. My doctor will not be happy.

[Darrell]

My doctor was not happy. That's his problem. It's also why he's no longer my doctor.

When doctor's ego takes priority over patient's health, it's time to get a new doctor.

[Linda Paulhus]

Please do a search for "The Detoxx System: Detoxification of Biotoxins in Chronic Neurotoxic Syndromes, John Foster, M.D."

Please note on page two the consequences of liver damage and the "backwashing" of toxins up through the lungs [resulting in mucus], throat, sinuses, eyes, cranial area--

Dr. Foster was the forerunner with research and the treatment of MND with I.V. glutathione. This is another consideration for healing the damage.

Also, *www.sciencedaily.com showed that the ketogenic diet [gluten-free as flour converts to sugar] may possibly stop the progression of ALS [and in my opinion, other neurological disorders may benefit].

Dr. Freeman authored a book re: Ketogenic Diet asbn 13:978-1-932603-18-7

[Darrell]

Linda, I don't have any issue with "gluten-free" for those who can benefit, but I do have an issue with telling people with statin-induced muscle damage to go carbohydrate-free ("as flour converts to sugar"):

Those of us who get benefit from carnitine do so because our muscle mitochondria can no longer properly process stored fats (within the muscle cells) for energy when our blood sugar starts to run low. One way to delay the fat-processing problems (i.e., delay the onset of "exercise intolerance") is to consume carbohydrates to produce sugars in an extended-release fashion. You can think of carbohydrates as sort of time-release sugar systems. That's why marathon runners and such do "carbohydrate loading". In fact, people with certain types of genetic myopathies actually routinely do things like consuming cornstarch at bed-time to get them through to breakfast the next morning.

That said, if you decide to use carbohydrates to ease your "exercise intolerance" difficulties, you have to be very careful to not boost your overall daily caloric intake or you will be racing toward obesity. I approach this by cutting back on carbs at meals so that I can snack on carbs between meals.

If you have the muscle problems and you need to lose weight, reduce your fats, especially the saturated fats. I have lost 40 pounds in the last year (6 feet tall, 220 pounds down to 180 pounds) by concentrating on reducing fats and reducing portion sizes. And I've done that while still consuming carbohydrates in modest quantities about five times a day. If you'd like to know how I feel now, just carry around eight 5-pound bags of sugar for a few days and then put them down.

[Linda Paulhus]

This is not my personal opinion. When neurological disease exists, the nerves are exposed. Further damage will occur due to exposure to flour conversion to sugar [medium chain carbs] as well as granulated sugars. The other form of carbohydrates [fruits and vegetables] maintain blood sugar without further neurological damage. John Mark Freeman, M.D., authored a book based on years of clinical research at Johns-Hopkins re: the Ketogenic Diet.

The diet has nothing to do with Celiac or food allergies. It is based on a high-coloric diet with omega 3, 6, and 9. The omega's heal the brain. Sugars destroy.

Science Daily.com-Mount Sinai Hospital, "High Caloric Diet May Prevent Progression of ALS". Basically the emphasis is minimal carbs and a high volume of good fats in the diet as well as essential fatty acids.

To the contrary, if one is in perfect health and needs the carbs for strenuous exercise, it is a very different situation. These people do not have neuron or muscular deterioration and have the ability to burn off the sugars [that will effect the brain].

Another excellent site is: *www.udoerasmus.com.

Two other studies are in clinicals at Mass. General Hospital in Boston. One for alleged depression from the prespective the cause may be Omega deficiency, and another study with pediatric brain disorders, using the Ketogenic Diet. So far, the feedback on local news broadcasts show much promise.

[Darrell]

I understand the purpose of the diet, especially in preventing frequent epileptic seizures. But it is not appropriate for those like me who have statin damage of carnitine-treatable myopathy without neuropathy. We have a fatty oxidation disorder (FOD) at the muscule mitochondria level, have a good use for carbs in moderation, and excessive fats can be counterproductive for us.

[Darrell]

...and this is a muscle pain thread, not a neuropathy or ALS thread.

[Linda Paulhus]

I know. Many people using statins have been diagnosed with ALS, Parkinson's, neuropathy, etc. due to side effects from the drugs. Most were ignored by their physicans until they deteriorated enough. At that point they were referred to a neurologist with no indicator the drugs caused the condition [s].

The diagnosis makes no difference. The reversal of the muscle deterioration is treated in the same manner. Currently, I am documenting cases of motor neuron disease with those using statin drugs.

I have had scores of ALS patients contact me with similar stories. Locally,
we have been approved for a foundation that will allow us to campaign for funds for a clinic and research team as well as donate monies to families.

At any rate, we all appreciate your efforts.

[carbuffmom]

Hi Linda:

I truly appreciate your efforts. As a statin induced ALS patient, I am always looking for things to improve my condition. I have decided to overhaul my diet. It certainly is worth a try. The doctors seem to have no better solutions.

As you can see from this forum, I am not the only one with ALS. Those of us who are diagnosed are devastated, and I thank you for trying to help.

DEB

[Darrell]

Deb, I suggest that you research this Ketogenic Diet very well as you are not trying to control frequent seizures under medical supervision and it has a LOT of risks. From Wikipedia:

"Like any other therapeutic intervention, the ketogenic diet is not without adverse effects. In 2004, Drs. Hoon Chul Kang, Da Eun Chung, Dong Wook Kim, and Heung Dong Kim reported that out of 129 patients who were on the diet at the Epilepsy Center at Inje University Sanggye Paik Hospital between July 1995 and October 2001, 46.5% experienced—in the 4-week trial period—dehydration, 38.8% experienced gastrointestinal symptoms (diarrhea (32.6%), nausea/vomiting (27.9%), and constipation (2.3%)), hypertriglyceridemia in 27.1%, hyperuricemia in 26.4%, hypercholesterolemia (14.7%), infections (pneumonia, cystitis, etc) in 9.3%, symptomatic hypoglycemia (7.0%), hypoproteinemia (5.4%)..."

Again, this is a therapy for frequent seizures, not muscle pain.

[carbuffmom]

Thanks, Darrell. I am doing a diet of more protein,less white carbs and more fruits and veggies and good fats. I don't need high calories as I seem to be able to maintain my weight. I have very little pain besides cramping, just weakness.

I still have Fiber One each morning.

Thanks for your concern.

[Biologist]

Darrell,

Very interesting comments. I value your opinions and experiences, and will give further consideration to your fat utilization arguments for impaired mitochondria. I think you are onto something there. Again, very interesting.

However, I note that you have not read the most important work to date regarding medicine, diet and "modern western diseases," (i.e., "diseases of civilization") which came out in 2007:

"Good Calories, BAD CALORIES" by Gary Taubes.

*http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204234057&sr=8-1

It is no typical "diet book." Not a recipe to be found in it. Cellular biology writ large just without the organic chemistry equations. It outlines and brings together 100 years of endocrinology-based disease theory / fact. It puts the AMA in their place (well sort of, their real place is prison).

I hope you buy it and read it today. From an email from a local surgeon (graduated top in his class years ago from one of the country's most renown med schools) whom I gave a copy recently: "I finished the book and enjoyed it immensely." No joke. Right down his alley. He is one of the enlightened ones who practices medicine accordingly -- specializes in endocrinology as a specialty in addition to surgery. It must have been encouraging to him to see that his thinking and practice is becoming more common knowledge. In short: Carbs (particularly flour and sugar, etc.) are poison and should be minimized in the diet, (while they may have some utility for some of us in the short run, as you have indicated -- hopefully not for the long run as they will be the life limiting factor in and of themselves -- as they have proven themselves to be over the last few centuries).

I just finished reading it for the second time and dropped a copy off to my GP last week (he will not enjoy it as much). Perhaps the best book I have ever read. All the pieces fall into place, including about statins (while nothing new to us on that particular front).

Please let me know what you think about it when you get around to reading it.

Good to hear about your weight loss. I too have lost 30 lbs and was NEVER hungry for a minute. Still cannot believe it.

BTW, such a keytogenic diet is anticipated to initially be more of a challenge for statin damaged victims, and probably for precisely the reason you mentioned. It worked for me though. I continued with the carnitine the whole time. I know I will never be over my ideal weight again, and that I am much less likely to suffer from any of our major diseases including Diabetes Type III (i.e., Alzheimer's).

I get it now. It all makes sense.

Regards,

Biologist

[Darrell]

Article in today's Science Daily: "Low-fat Diets More Likely To Reduce Risk Of Heart Disease Than Low-carb Diets". Read it here:
*http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080229141756.htm

[Biologist]

Darrell,

It is all addressed in the book. Major moneyed interests are involved in maintaining the status quo. Tens of billions per year. The processed food manufacturers, for one (a big one). I have not yet checked out the Wikipedia page, but I'm convinced it is likely another Tobacco Industry-type ploy at work.

Wisconsin (where the study is from, I believe) is Ancel Keys' old stomping grounds. A state treasure.

In short I do not believe them (the researchers and reporters) or their conclusions -- subterfuge is what I suspect. Absurdly short study length too. Also note that some of the articles listed right beside that article cited have a different point of view.

I hope you read the book.

BTW, my weight loss was nothing. I doubt if I could have / would have done what you pulled off. You are tough. Major will power.

On the other hand, KEEPING IT OFF may be much easier (or effortless) now by lowering your carbs. And I believe healthier too.

Could I be wrong? Sure. (But I don't think so.) I believe Atkins was right on the money -- I have since read his book too. He was slandered endlessly by the Keys crowd in Wisconsin and in the established medical community as a whole for years. Even censured by the medical profession. They were wrong then and wrong now just like they were wrong then and are wrong now about cholesterol and statins. BTW, the low fat diet idea came directly from Keys. He and his partners are the ones who stepped on the low carb diet (because it was at odds with their cholesterol model) in defiance of 100 years of evidense and research.

I'm rooting for you.

Biologist

[gotts1936]

I may be incorrect, but I think we should remove all drugs from the market place and let everyone died from "natural causes".