trashing doctors

[pops]

I've posted here because lovastatin induced intense pain in me and I quit taking it after 33 days.

But I have a story from the other side of the fence. I learned of this today, December 6th, 2010.

A guy I know who works as water rescue for the fire department told me he had a heart attack a year ago. His symptoms were mild and included shortness of breath and pain in both arms. He felt better after a few minutes and thought it was nothing. But a co-worker said he'd better get it checked out.

The ER rushed him to surgery. They installed a stent. Instantly his difficulty breathing - which he'd had for some time - cleared up.

Now they have him on statins and Plavix and hypertension meds and so on. You all know the drill. From what I saw of him today, he seems to be doing fine.

Doctors saved his life - and/or prevented him from being a disability for the rest of his life.

Statins were part of the treatment.

I thought it only fair to tell this story, in light of everything else I've said here.

And keep in mind: this guy told me his cholesterol and blood pressure were normal and he did not smoke. And he's younger than me.

So I think it's time for me to cut doctors some slack.
They did a miraculous job with him. It's not all bad. We can't afford to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Some of us suffered side effects. But some people apparently benefit from doctors' care, which in this guy's case included statins.

pOps

[lars999]

Hi pOps!!

I too have a nice story about a friend saved from death or severe disability. It differs from your story in that no statins or other geewhiz drugs were prescribed.

STORY: A very physically active friend had just finished his routine workout and was walking out of gym when he suddenly felt faint and then passed out. As he fell, he was caught by a cardiologist coming in to start his workout (talk about a lucky day!!). Cardiologist recognized what was happening and immediately started emergency measures. By time my friend awoke, he was in hospital and had a stint in one coronary artery. He had been the victum of a ruptured (soft or vulnerable) plaque "boil", with clogged artery as consequence. There was minimal damage to heart muscle, thanks to very prompt treatment, and he slowly returned to almost his normal, physically active life. His only ongoing medication is low-dose aspirin. He is in his 70s.

This is medecin at its best!!

No or almost no plaque was found in the arteries used to install the stent. His cholesterol, lipids, etc. are all well within the normal range, even with the drastically lowered current guidelines. He has no information as to where the plaque "boil" was located that burst, or if there are others somewhere. He and I have initiated discussion of how best to proceed with a "plaque inventory" and/or measures to reduce any vulnerable (to rupture) plaque that may exist somewhere in his arteries.

I find the similarities and differences in these two stories enlightening and bothersome. I also view both stories in light of far worse medical practice than simply my nasty experience with Lipitor. 10 plus years ago I lost all of my close friends to totally unnecessary deaths caused by doctors either missing a deadly disease or putting patients on treatments that initiated events leading to their death. One was the woman I expected to spend remainder of my life with. Yes I am angry, very angry. I am also intent on finding constructive outlets for my anger, as are many others that became victums of some high-profit drug.

It is not simply doctors that I hold in low regard, it is the entire "modern" health system, especially the makers of advanced drugs, such as statins, hormone replacement therapy, blood pressure lowering pills, most cancer drugs, etc., etc. -- basically drugs that greatly worsen many peoples lives, while providing little or no benifit.

After much reading of actual medical reports of various clinical trials of statin drugs, I find nearly all badly flawed and that public pronouncments by drug company spokespersons often are independent of actual results.

In recent months I have heard the same pronouncments by three doctors -- "Statin drugs are miracle drugs!!" My response is that I flatly disagree, even see them as totally the opposite. NONE of those doctors want to hear why or anything susbstantive about why I feel that way. Even more shocking-disgusting to this part-chemist is that NONE of them understand the extensive damage statin drugs do to the human bodie's most important biochemical precesses. For this badly missinformed arrogance, I feel "trashing" on this count to be totally deserved. Yea, the individal doctor may indeed simply be badly missinformed, but, it is just that harmful missinformation and the actions they take based on that missinformation, that I strongly condem.

Even with this total dissagreement about statins, there are some very constructive means of dodging this. Today I arrainged for 11 different blood tests and one ultrasound analysis to extensively and in detail determine the statis of my arteries. Only one of those blood tests is the latest "darling" of the cholesterol and statin activists. With all results in hand, we should have a very detailed picture, NOT some nonsense based on "relative risk factors" and cholesterol hocus pocus.

With respect where earned,
Lars

[pops]

Lars:

First, let me say that I'm so sorry for your losses. Nothing we say here can nullify that.

I've lost several friends in the last few years. A couple of them to coronary artery disease. As far as I know, none of them were taking any medication for their condition.

I know you're right in that doctors know little about the drugs they're prescribing, and often the only information they get comes from the pharmaceutical companies that manufacture these drugs. And if Marcia Angell (spelling?) is right, the the NEJM (and presumably the JAMA as well) allows articles to be written by big pharma and signed by junior doctors who don't actually know anything about the contents. Thereby eliminating statements regarding true side effects of drugs.

I will not refute the fact that my own "meta-analysis" told me that statins are much more dangerous than doctors are aware of. It also seems doctors don't know the variety of possible side effects from statins. They only know what they're told: muscle pain is rare. Rhabdo is astronomically rare. ALS/MS type symptoms and neuropathies don't exist. There is no memory loss ever.

Of course that's all bull. Anyone reading deeply into the literature knows it.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

On the other hand, statins help some people. Not you and I. Not people who post here. But some.

I estimate that just under 2/3 of the people taking statins have no noticable side effects from them. The reverse is also true, IMO: over 1/3 of people taking statins have side effects.

Two people I know of who died suddenly may have lived had they been on statins.

I don't know the answer. "The truth shall set you free." The implication here is that it would be really nice if big pharma, and consequently the medical establishment, were to be honest about statins' side effect rates and the variety of side effects, so that patients could be well informed about what to expect and about the risks they're taking.

It would also be wise to give the genetic tests that discover who might be subject to these side effects, so that those people could avoid taking statins and find another way. Like your friend, who did well with only aspirin.

In other words, medicine could and should be more fine tuned so that what happened to you and me doesn't happen often. Unfortunately there are probably two reasons why medicine doesn't work that way. One is that insurance companies don't want to pay for all those tests. And the other is that big pharma doesn't want to lose money by not prescribing statins to everything that walks talks breathes or takes nourishment. They'd probably be prescribing them to chickens and goats if they could get away with it. Anything to increase the bottom line.

Here I go, caught up in the negativity again!

Well, I'm sorry again. I didn't know you'd suffered so much. I hope your pain can be eased somehow, and of course, not with drugs.

Have a nice day, if at all possible.

pOps

[lars999]

pOp,

I do have lots of nice days, they are just harder to accomplish now. A few new friends helps lots, but 5-year friendships, no matter how good, don't easily replace 25-year, really close friendships.

Cost to insurance companies can be sliced and diced more than one way. All those years that my insurance paid for the high cost of Lipitor really needs to be traded against the cost of truly useful, insightful blood tests and various physical (ultrasound, etc.) measurements of actual arterial plaque and especially the presence of inflammation to/in arterial walls and presence of vulnerable plaque. All data to date indicate that I have very low risk of either heart attack or stroke and that whatever plaque I have is minor. However, the experience of my extremely lucky friend (story above) causes me to want more and better information.

Yes, some folks are walking medical disasters waiting to happen. I have another very lucky friend. He was in doctor's office for annual check up when doctor told him he was in immedate danger of a heart attack from badly clogged arteries. Basically, he went directly to operating room and ended up with a few bypasses. He has been on slowly decreasing dosages of Plavix ever since (no statins). I know essentially nothing more of his situation, because I seldom see him and only in purely highly focused social settings. How much could have been done prior to his preemptive bypasses? How much was ignored, missed, etc? Would his experience support arguments for better monitoring? Was he victum of changed medical conditions, leading to rapid growth of plaque?

Something will for sure kill me in coming 30 years or so. I do not intend to be easy pickings.

Lars

[pops]

Lars:

I don't intend to be easy pickings either. But there are no guarantees. Better safe than sorry. Except in our case the cure was a disaster.

I went shopping today. Legs hurt. Before statins I could walk forever, ride my bike, swim, all in the same day, and absolutely no leg pain. Since statins I've had pain as a reminder 24/7.

So I am with you. Statins are bad medicine. Except for those who are helped by them without severe side effects.

In my view doctors should tell patients that if they have any side effects, stop taking the statin immediately and call them.

Instead doctors assume the pain will dissipate with time.

People should also be warned that the pain can become permanent if they don't stop the drugs. But they're not.

There is a lot wrong with the system.

Merck has a new drug in testing that doubles HDL and lowers LDL. Hopefully fewer side effects than statins, but we can't know that yet.

Oh well, maybe someday there will be a class action suit and you and I will get a couple hundred grand without expecting it.

That would be nice. It wouldn't make up for the pain. But it'd be better than nothing.

Have a nice day.
E illegitimus no carborundum est
(don't let the b-st-rds wear you down)

pOps

[lars999]

pOps,

What I am looking for is some solidly based (NOT in the cholesterol hocus pocus BS) medical and especially biochemical evidence of what determines lipid levels and types in normal people, not affected by any invasive drugs (that is, statins, etc.). Maybe I get some insight about where those informations are hiding as current doc and I discuss results of my upcoming suite of insightful blood tests -- at least they should be insightful. To use other words, I am looking for what natural factors, good or bad, control lipid concentrations. I am not at all interested in the usual blather about cholesterol et al as a disease, or new drugs to affect different lipid ratios -- how can such widely and fundamentally essential biochemicals be a disease that need "controlling"????? Symptoms yes, disease, NO!

Happily, my present doc seems very much interested in discussing the results of blood chemistry results that relate more or less directly to chemical insults to arterial walls, such as various types of inflammation. I would LOVE to have some nice solid biochemical data for my arteries!!! These are the real initiaters of plaque build up. Then there are -- I hope -- solid biochemical markers that allow monitoring different types of plaque, such as deadly vulnerable plaque vs the crude "bandaids" called fiberous plaque that our bodies have used to "patch" incepient leaks in our arteries (not repaired by neater means). Such a set of insights would be a wonderous New Year's present from current doc.

Hope I am not being dilusional!
Lars

[pops]

Lars:

Dude (dare I use "dude" here?), you are searching for the fountain of youth! Do a search for Ponce De Leon, and see what he has to say!

Sorry!

Okay, yeah, some people claim it's really CRP that causes plaque and not LDL. "Proof" is the test where they added Ezetimibe to a statin, resulting in lower LDL, but not lower CHD rates. In fact, I think there was an "anomalous" increase in CHD in the lower LDL group.

So some scientists claim CRP (C-Reactive Protein) is the cause of plaque. Other scientists claim CRP is just a marker - the more plaque the higher the CRP, but it is an effect, not a cause.

I don't know anything for sure, myself.

Dr. Weil, BTW, says that circumen lowers CRP dramatically.
Which doesn't prove it reduces risk of cardiovascular disease.

Assumptions in science almost never work out. Which is why they have to test stuff using double blind studies. Frequently they are disappointed in the results.

I wish you well in your research.

The most likely answer is diet and exercise is the only thing *proven* to curb CHD. Everything else - probably including statins - is speculative.

Imagine a study where they try to find out what people do in countries with the highest longevity. Will the answer be that those people take statins or bile resin inhibitors or fibrates or niacin or stanols or sterols?

Not likely.

In fact, France was on top of the list when they did such a study. So was Italy. They don't take silly drugs very often in either country. They drink wine, eat olive oil and garlic.

Hey, Italy and France: Hmm. maybe it's sex ... (Thus it's Viagra®, doc, not statins!) ...

Anyway, have a nice day. Live long and prosper.

When you find the fountain, please let me know. I'm looking too.

pOps

[lars999]

OK pOps, you are really perceptive!!

But it was statins that caused me to go looking for fountain of youth. One of those cognitive effects, you know. It happened sorta this way. Before I quit Lipitor I was feeling like I was 99 going on dead. Then I quit Lipitor and got back to at least 80 in a few weeks. Recently, my treadmill stress test put my effective age well below my real age of 70. I really don't need much, if any, Viagra any more. The young women at gym keep looking at me.... You see the treand here?

Damn Statins, if I had just kept taking them, I coulda been in a nice quiet spot by now.

I really should read Beatrice Golumb's report on cognitive effects of statins. Maybe "delusional pursuit of fountain of youth" in hidden in there somewere, at least implied. Must be one of those side effects that get worse after quitting statin drug.

Please keep your preceptive advice flowing!! I might need it........
Lars

[pops]

Thanks, Lars! I try to perceive that which I can.

Heck, we're all looking for the fountain of youth. That's a given. Except when we were young, at which time we were sure we would either live forever, or the senior years would be so slow coming that we'd essentially never have to worry about them.

Guess what: they're here!

I hate it when that happens.

But it's all good.

And yeah, I got an RX for lovastatin for 90 days. I took 28 pills - 10 mg each - the lowest dose. By the time I stopped I could barely walk. Prior to that I could hike 6 miles, swim half a mile, and bike 10 miles, all in the same day, and have absolutely no pain whatsoever.

I'm certain the doctors would say I had a preexisting condition which the statins brought out; that's what they're told to say.

Now it's pain always. I'm back to my workouts, but they're less. Restricted by pain.

Statins increased my risk of CHD.
Stupid, ain't it.

My fault: I said yes. Sure doc, go ahead and poison me.

Well, we're in the same boat. Except the beautiful women at the gym. I'm jealous!

I hope you have a wonderful day, and I hope all your dreams come true, including the one in which Ponce De Leon comes to you in a dream and gives you the magic formula that does it for you.

Then I hope you contact me and tell me what it is!

Later!

pOps

[adec]

You can turn the clock back though. The fountain of youth is right under your feet. My mother recovered 100 percent from a near death after experiencing statin poisoning due to Lipitor. Probably will cost you a week's supply of Lipitor, if not less. I now see the average doctor as nothing more than Bernie Madoff in a white labcoat. Check back in a while and I will formulate it for you.

[pops]

Wow, that's awesome that your mother recovered 100%.

I'm interested in your formula, but I don't want to take a ton of pills. Which was why I narrowed it down to coq10. I figured that was the forerunner. But maybe you've got something I can take with it for a while. I don't know. We'll see how my body reacts.

As for doctors, it's incredible how much faith I've lost in them. Which is one of my problems with this statin fiasco. I used to feel fairly confident that when I had a problem, my doctor could fix it. Now that my doctor has destroyed my health worse than anything else in my life, I no longer feel doctors are trustworthy, and I wonder what will happen to me when and if I need a doctor badly.

Here's a comparison of what lovastatin did to me versus the next worst disease I've ever encountered:

I had hepatitis A for a month in 1972. I almost died from it. Doctor said a few more days of no drinking or eating (I wasn't able to do either) and I've have died for sure.

Two months later I was feeling fine.

I took lovastatin for one month. I got horrid pain and heart problems. I felt at least as bad as I did with hepatitis. It's been 8 months. My heart has healed, but much of the pain remains.

In other words, lovastatin harmed me more and longer than hepatitis A, which until now had been the worst medical problem I've ever had in my life.

I can't believe doctors give this stuff out so freely.
Are they f-ing nuts?

I think the answer is yes.

So I'm with you on that.
I suppose those who take statins with no side effects are very, very lucky. I wasn't.

I look forward to seeing what you post as your formula. I will take it on advisement. Thanks, Lars.

pOps

[lars999]

Hej pOps, could adec be messenger from Ponce de Leon?

Lars

[pops]

Lars:

Ponce is dead. You'll do. If you have the answer.
But don't waste it on me. You could be a billionaire with that kind of thing!

I can see the headlines:

Fountain of Youth discovered by chemist working in his garage. He claims to have done it by combining a molecule from a cholesterol blocking drug and a chemical found in whole wheat toast. Lars, the man who discovered this exciting new drug, is now rich beyond his wildest dreams. Merck is suing Lars, claiming he used their drug as part of the process. Lars is not concerned. He told this reporter his team of lawyers could defeat Merck's team any day of the week.

Hey, it could happen!

pops

[lars999]

pOps,

Thank your for you kind divination!!

There is some smidgins of truth to to it. I do have the Lipitor pills I never took. We usually have whole wheat bread at home. But, if I use Lipitor, it will be Pfizer, not Merck, that will try to sue me. I WOULD love to put a few Lipitor molecules to such a positive use as you suggest. Especially with something so wholesome as whole wheat toast.

Now, something with one molecule from Lipitor and one from whole wheat toast would be in the realm of homopatic medicine, simply on basis of dilution alone. Now, that might actually work, especially if combined with the techniques discribed so well in "The Emperor's Clothes".

Waddya think pOps the wizard?

[Allen1]

Hi there p0ps and Lars,

it looks like both of you are doing well in the thinking department :wink:
I bet a few months back, you would have struggled to find the right intellectual type wording that you are using so eloquently now in these recent posts, its good to see improvements, I just wished I was bright enough to know things like who was Ponce de Leon and the likes without having to revert to wikipedia :lol: :lol: :lol:

All the best,
Allen :)


Nice to see adec on the site too, I look forward to more posts from her :)

[lars999]

Good to see you Allen! I heard some big white thing and invaded England. Was it a snowstorm, hungary polar bears or Icelandic bankers?

Glad you percive that pOps and I are recovering. I keep wondering if it is some cognitive effect of statins.

Lars

[Allen1]

Hi there Lars,

it has been pretty bleak hear in the UK with snow coming down (and temperature) so hard. This has caused so many problems for the last 2 weeks for people and traffic ie card and lorries and even our trains being unable to move. Schools have been closed and staff have been unable to get to work and those that managed in hospitals and the likes stayed there to be on hand when needed in some cases.

I think if Polar bears were native to the UK, that they would have migrated to warmer climates over the last 2 weeks Thankfully the temperature is climbing up a bit now and the snow is melting (still cold though). One of our news team went to a country where this sort of weather is normal for their winters, they invest in snow blowers, snow ploughs and anything else that will help, the people who were interviewed said looking at the UK and how it is coping is like looking back to how it was in the 1950's here.

Anyway, I would have to say that both you and pOps seem to be more articulate in your replies hence the remark on the improvements. I know that some days (or maybe that should come back down to hours), I can write half decent replies and follow links to some good information, the rest of the time, I just give up trying

Back onto Polar bears, if you know where there are a few hungry polar bears, could you please send them to the houses of parliament over here, there are many big fat tasty liars in there that would make a decent meal for them, its about all those members are good for and it would be a shame to not make use of that talent

All the best,
Allen

[Allen1]

Tut Tut Tut HEAR instead of HERE and CARD instead of CARS. Just when you think things are not so bad :lol:

it has been pretty bleak hear in the UK with snow coming down (and temperature) so hard. This has caused so many problems for the last 2 weeks for people and traffic ie card and lorries and even our trains being unable to move. Schools have been closed and staff have been unable to get to work and those that managed in hospitals and the likes stayed there to be on hand when needed in some cases.

[vicki]

Well I'm going to trash a doctor. Went to the cardiologist yesterday. I want to make sure I don't have any damage to my heart and I am 62 and have had breathing issures. Anyway he spent 10 mins. total with me. I told him about my breathing problems and all other problems, muscle, tendons....... of course, he said their is no such thing except MILD muscle pain and that goes away. He said that was the only side effect of statins. I shut up because I could not get a word in, he knew everything. Wouldn't look at my condensed verson of ALL my hundreds of medical records that show everything, nothing. He says come back for more tests, treadmill test. Ten mins. and I'm sure a $800 dollar office call bill.

Oh and he said when I said, their are thousands on the internet that have the same side-effects as me. He said" stay off the internet"

These doctors just don't listen at all ! Noting helps, doctors just don't listen to us.

[lars999]

Vicki,

You have identified another deserving food source for hungry polar bears, following Allen's suggestion.

I am 3 for 3 with doctors, including one cardiologist, that absolutely do not want to hear information about adverse effects of statins. Last one called statins "absolutely miracle drugs" -- my response was that I saw them as exactly the opposite. He even said "Statins have saved thousands and thousands of lives!" Sheer fabrication, based on some really trashy use of statistics and data analysis, all based on "decrease" in "risk factors", not on actual decrease in deaths from cardiovascular disease. Read Malcom Kendricks' book "The Great Cholesterol Con" -- you can buy it on Amazon for less than $15,00.

Allen,

I am reading another wonderful book by a Brit. "Bad Science - Quacks, Hacks and Big Pharma -- Flacks .. by Ben Goldacre, Faber and Faber, INC. See *www.FSGbooks.com or look for it in local bookstore.

This book makes the Statin and Cholesterol Scam look a bit minor league, compared to other actions and activities of Big Pharma and Processed Food Industry.

I live now and then in some of those northern countries that have lots of snow. Those are different worlds! But, snow really does not stop them for long, really never did.

Lars