Zocor

[Patty]

I have never posted on this board before, so I hope I can figure it out.

I had been on 40 mg. of Zocor for two years after an agioplasty with one stent in a heart artery. No problems until four months ago, resulting in the usual symtoms, mainly leg pain. It got so bad in April, that I could barely walk and getting up and down from a chair was difficult.

Stopped Zocor right away, and I started feeling somewhat better, but some days are worse than others. If I overdo, it is worse -- and if I'm senentary, it is worse. Can't seem to find a good balance. The Doc put me on Zetia and I take Co Q10.

I'm wondering if anyone on this board have taken Zetia and is 50 mg. of COQ10 a good choice? Would physical therapy help in getting strength back in my legs? I WANT MY LIFE BACK!

Thanks for any advice you can give me.

[catamaran]

G'day Patty,

I'm not a physician, so take this advice with as many grains of salt as seems appropriate:

I have not used Zetia, but I have used a copy-cat that has gone off patent, Cholestyramine, a bile-acid binding medium that lowers LDL production in the liver. The therapy lowered my lipid levels from 287mg/dl to 210mg/dl, fairly effective in producing a result that is essentially meaningless in the prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD).

I have also used Zocor for almost a decade and in conjunction with its usual effect of destroying muscle fiber I believe it has been the culprit in compromising my lung capacity via a possible combination of pulmonary inflammation and interstitial fibrosis....can't prove the link. If I could, MSD would be in court with me as plaintiff.

In any event, I wouldn't use a statin drug for any reason and I wouldn't bother with attempting to lower "cholesterol". Statins involve risks that far outweigh positive effects, and lowering "cholesterol" is only marginal at preventing the onset of CVD.

I have found after four years of intensive study that chronic subclinical scurvy (vitamin C deficiency) is the cuprit directly or indirectly in all cases of CVD. The capstone of my research comes from two books by board-certified cardiologist, Dr. Thomas Levy, "Stop America's #1 Killer" and "Curing the Incurable, Vitamin C Infectious Diseases and Toxins",
Livonlabs.com. I hightly recommend these two books to you, and please be advised that I have NO vested interest in the productions.

To your health, C.

[Patty]

Thanks for your reply. I'll check out those books.

I scrolled down the board and found some further info on Zetia. It is reported that it is not a statin, but in my research, it can cause the same side effects.

I started taking it about five weeks ago. I was told to get my cholesterol checked after a month, so I will go in next week. It has never been particularly high (and my HDL is good), but they put me on Zocor as a precaution after the angioplasty.

I have had several blood tests for liver function and the CK test (I think that was the name of it), and they are OK. The Doc ordered a full extremity ultrasound, but there was a mix-up with the scheduling, and I just let it drop. Wonder if I should reschedule it.

My feeling right now is that I probably will stop taking it and see if I start feeling any better. Takes a lot to get me to a doctor, so I will wait until my next visit. In fact, when I started having the side effects from Zocor, I did some research on line, and sent a LETTER to my cardiologist and primary care docs telling them I stopped taking it.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.

[davidsa]

Patty and everyone,

There is no reason for ANYONE to take Zetia. Statins work by poisoning your liver, while Zetia works by poisoning your intestine. This is different from cholestyramine. Cholestyramine is a kind of fiber that binds with cholesterol and other things in the gut, so that absorption by the gut is prevented.

Zetia works directly on the gut itself to prevent absorption of cholesterol. In that way it is much more dangerous than cholestyramine.

Furthermore, no one has tested Zetia for it's clinical effects other than lowering cholesterol---in other words, unlike most of the statins, no one has done the testing to see if Zetia actually does improve heart disease, or blood vessel function!

Thus, anyone taking Zetia is paying for being a guinea pig! If you want to be a guinea pig, at least let them pay you for it.

You can have arguments about the benefits of Zocor or other statins, but there are NO DATA about benefits of Zetia. Until there are, stay away from it.

Rhutra

[Ray Holder]

Hi Patty

50 mg of Q10 is a very low dose, Dr Langsjoen used about 200 mg a day in his latest published trial of Q10 for statin damage. I take 600mg, but I have greater problems including heart weakness.

The muscle pain is not likely to respond only to Q10, you need that to avoid other Q10 deficiency problems which have also been caused by statins and to prevent further deficiency of carnitine, which is most probably the reason for your leg pain. Since I suggested carnitine to Darrell in April last year, 17,000 visits have been made to that topic, so you are among a large crowd of people with the same problem.

L Carnitine or Acetyl L carnitine should give quick relief, dosage and advice on building up to a satisfactory level will be found under "Relief for my muscle pain" and Darrell in late April 1006, but I will help if you are in any difficulty.

Hoping you get swift relief

Ray

[Darrell]

Hi all! I haven't posted for a long time and this seems as good a place as any to give you an update.

I still take 2,500 to 3,000 mg per day of L-Carnitine in divided doses. I still get leg pain if I don't. I take about half Acetyl-L-Carnitine and half Propionyl-L-Carnitine. I also take 200 mg per day of Q10.

I have been able to be very active this year and I have no doubt that's only possible thanks to the L-Carnitine. (Thanks again, Ray!)

My leg does not seem to be getting better or worse with time. With L-Carnitine it's good and without it's bad. I'm better at not missing carnitine doses, and that has to be a good thing. I think getting exercise while in pain has to be a bad thing, possibly doing even more muscle damage.

I've lost 30 pounds since February with a whole lot of dietary effort, and that has to be good for my knee. I still need to lose about 8 more pounds to reach my ideal weight and I will get there and stay there. My blood pressure has dropped from typical 120/80 to typical 105/65 and I'm pretty sure that's due to all the lard removal. I'm planning to live a long life in spite of my very unsatisfactory encounters with Zocor and Zetia.

My Zocor-induced leg muscle problems flared up when I later started Zetia. I wouldn't advise anybody to ever take a statin or Zetia.

[Patty]

Thanks for your replies. I am of the opinion that I will be quitting Zetia soon. Zocor pretty much made me lame for awhile, so why would I want to take another DRUG?

BTW, I am not a fan of vitamins either. Have you been in a health food store recently? Rows and rows of pills. Made my skin crawl. Why take MORE drugs, especially those that aren't FDA approved? I take a one a day vitamin and 50 mg. of coQ10 which I started recently, but will quit when the bottle is empty.

Let's all get drug free!

[Ray Holder]

Glad to hear that carnitine is still working for you, Darrell, but it only goes to show that statin damage is fundamental and permanent, supplementation to feed the need is the only available answer, but the cause is incurable.

I have touched on this before, but the website of Washington University of St Louis is very helpful and authoritative --*www.wustl/NEUROMUSCULAR/html . If you look for myopathy from lipid lowering, Coenzyme Q10 deficiency, and carnitine deficiency, you will find statin TOXICITY given as the cause of the trouble, not "intolerance of statins", as the latest guidelines here in UK suggest, it must be given its proper description----POISON

Patty

Don't decry everything you see in the health food shops as worthless, I know that I have little faith in many of the multitude of products, but Coenzyme Q10 and carnitine are unlikely to be found at the pharmacy, mainly because no-one has put them up for FDA approval. That does not mean that they are not necessary, but has more to do with drug companies trying to protect their markets from having their products appear less than perfect.

FDA approval has not prevented statins from damaging those who take them, and the supplements are needed to replace substances vitally necessary for our bodies to operate properly, statin poisoning has killed off or badly damaged our ability to produce them. Carnitine and Q10 are not drugs or vitamins, they are essentials. I believe I would not survive for more than two or three weeks without mine, just forgetting a single dose gives me a sharp reminder of that fact.

Hoping you get to see at least your ninth decade!!!

Ray

[Biologist]

Hi, Ray & Darrell,

I ordered several books from Amazon recently and have several of them going. Here's one of them:

*http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Truth-about-Cholesterol-Lowering-Drugs/dp/0977207900/ref=sr_1_4/102-3364774-3884128?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184523691&sr=8-4

BTW, checking to get the hyperlink for you just now I see that I did not order his newest one which is found here:

*http://www.amazon.com/Health-Myths-Exposed-M-Sc-Ellison/dp/0977207927/ref=sr_1_1/102-3364774-3884128?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184523691&sr=8-1

I don't have a clue how I managed to do that, but since the one I got is so good, I will likely be ordering more anyway (for other people) and will try the new one next time. It is a real short read that gets right to the fraud and should elicit appropriate outrage for all neophytes to the statin world: It should make believers out of those who are still under the evil spell. I recommend it for just that purpose. It nicely summarizes the fraud found in "the studies" in a short readable form too.

But the reason I post is to give this quote because I was not aware that a form of carnitine had been approved by the FDA. And BTW, Ellison does not think much of the FDA (like most of us don't, I would guess -- including me for sure). From page 56 (and I will include the preceding paragraph too as it is interesting).

"Alpha-lipoic Acid (ALA) - ALA stops inflammation in its
tracks -- prevents plaque build-up. ALA is essential for
diabetics due to its ability to reduce insulin sensitivity,
oxidative stress, and diabetic peripheral neuropathy:

Acetyl-L-Carnitine aka ALCAR (not L-Carnitine) - ALCAR
prevents weakening of the heart, known as cardiomypathy
(important for heat failure patients). The importance of
ALCAR has become so prominent that it is actual
approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA)!

These nutrients provide significantly greater protection
from heart disease than any cholesterol lowering drug.
Relative to statin drugs, the use of these nutrients
would not be accompanied with negative effects and
inflated costs. Thanks to "drug company influence on
your health" these facts have been obscured from the
public."

Ray, you have sure been proven right about carnitine and I thank you too. I started it days after reading one of your posts here and it makes a huge difference.

I did an experiment starting Thursday -- that I am just getting over. I quit all supplements cold except for CoQ10 just to see the effect. Not good. I felt bad starting Friday and Saturday was worse. My vision is one of my barometers -- it got fuzzy the whole time. The experiment amazed me a bit and disappointed me. I started back by taking ALCAR and ALA late Saturday and that got the ball rolling again very quickly. And it shows that these two (or maybe just the carnitine) are in a league of their own. They are the power houses for "normalization." Now it is possible after a few weeks -- if I had extended the experiment -- that my own production might pick back up somewhat (as you may have alluded to in another post regarding the affects of someone's steroid supplementation -- and I know that phenomenon does occur), but the test was pretty dramatic showing that I still need carnitine supplementation and may always need it. (And I will need the Acetyl form for its ability to cross the blood brain barrier.) However: While that is a bummer because I "am not whole" the fact is I had already decided that I will always take it anyway. Of course, I would rather take it as an enhancement than as a necessity, but that may not be in the cards for me now. I think everyone should consider such supplementation based on my readings -- I would even if I had never heard the term "statin toxicity." It is just that it is now mandatory for us and will only make us closer to normal rather than performing as some kind of enhancer against mental aging (brain health).

I warned someone recently who had been talked back into statins again that the next time would make a believer out of her due to "re-challenge" problems. She called and said she is now getting very bad leg pains (could hardly walk) and has quit. I told her about carnitine. I hope that it is not permanent in her case. For some people it goes away for good apparently.

Biologist

[Patty]

Since several people on this board suggested Carnitine for my Zocor induced muscle pain, I have been doing some research. It is quite confusing and I'm not sure about dosages. I started taking coQ10 when I stopped Zocor and started taking Zetia. I only take 50 mg. a day, but after reading some of your posts, will increase it to 200 mg.

I had some blood tests Tuesday, but haven't received the results yet. The drive to the Base and back (plus buying $150 of groceries), wiped me out. The pain is worse when I extend my leg when driving. It is only a 36 mile round trip!

I will see the Doc soon, and will talk to him about quitting Zetia. From what I hear about that drug, I think it would be a good thing to throw it away.

If anyone could suggest what kind of Carnitine I should buy and what dosage, I would be grateful.

I'm so glad I found this forum.

[Ray Holder]

Hi Patty

There are two kinds of carnitine used by statin damaged people, they are Lcarnitine, and Acetyl L carnitine. Many find it doesn't make much difference which you take, I have seen it suggested that for nerve and brain problems, Acetyl is better, while for muscle wastage plain L carnitine is the one I prefer.

I suggest you take whichever you can most easily obtain, capsules are better than tablets, which don't work for me. The correct dose for you is something you have to experiment to find out. A good start would be one 500mg capsule a day, first thing in the morning 1/2 hour before food, if you can manage it, for three or four days, then increase to two tablets a day for another 3 or 4 days and so on until you get sufficient relief, or your bowels object by becoming loose, when you should go back one stage. This is unlikely to occur at less than 2 or 3 grams a day. some find it best to take a high dose in stages at different times, but try to keep 2 hours after food, and 1/2 hour before food to gain the best effect. It is not cheap, and there is no point in taking more than you need, it only goes to waste.

If you find the website *www.neuro.wustl.edu/neuromuscular and in the index find Carnitine disorders, well down on the page you will see Multiple Acyl CoA-----MADD with carnitine and Q10 as treatments..Coenzyme Q10 deficiency, and lipid lowering will also bring up authentic university info to show your doctor, if he is a helpful one

Ray

[Patty]

Thanks Ray. I printed your reply and I'm on my way to Costco.

I will check out that web site also.

[cjbrooksjc]

Patty:
If you will return to the top of this page and click on the "Statins Home Page" indicator, you will find a wealth of information to peruse, and you may find answers to many of your questions without waiting for a response from one of the members. I take 600mg of CoQ10 daily - 200mg before each meal and 1 gram (1000mg) of Acetyl L Carnitine daily. You might ask yr Dr. if he would administer a Magnesium absorption test to see if yr mag levels are low (mine proved non existent); it's a common side effect of Statin use - don't know why, but I tool shots weekly for two months to get my levels up. Selenium 200mcg daily is also recommended.

Regards,

Brooks

[Patty]

Thanks for your reply. After my first post, I did study the messages on the forum and learned a lot.

It just makes me a little nervous to self-medicate, which I would be doing taking these two products.

I made the decision today, after spending some time on this board, that I will not take any more Zetia and will up the dosage of coQ10 and start taking caritine.

I will discuss this with my doctor on my next visit.

[cjbrooksjc]

Patty: I understand your reticence to take supplements uninformed. This has to be your decision. We are, most of us, taking these supplements to heal, and we are not (as far as I know) sicker as a result. I hope your Dr. is open-minded and willing to listen - so many are irritatingly stiff-necked about their profession and their opinions. There is commiseration and real help here and willing 'ears' anyway. Welcome to the forum.

Regards,

Brooks