Dr. Graveline's Twelve Supplements

[Biologist]

Hi, Craig.

Based on your numbers, you are an excellent candidate for TRT. Congratulations for getting on the right track. You have not mentioned if you have read Dr. Shippen's book. You could order it here or find it in a library.

*http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Syndrome-Critical-Sexuality-Reversing-Menopause/dp/087131858X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8409589-8095012?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191943414&sr=1-1

If you have been ONLY on Androgel for a while, by now you should be feeling pretty bad.

You did not mention your estradiol level. To me, that implies that it probably was not tested. That also implies that your doctor is not competent in TRT (like my original doctor was not and the vast majority of primary care doctors are not). He may be good at almost everything else in medicine, and be a great guy, but he does not know what he is doing with your therapy. Sorry to be so blunt. You have to educate your doctor is some areas of medicine which include TRT. They simply were not taught in med school and it is not a topic for continuing education classes. Or find one who already knows.

As an example, you almost certainly need to be on low dose Arimidex to control testosterone conversion to estradiol. It's generic name is anastrozole, and its cheap as a generic. You would likely need about 1/2 of a milligram every three days. If you do not take it, your ratio of estradiol to testosterone will get too high and that is the same has being too low on testosterone regardless of how high your levels of testosterone are. You need proper testing and a doctor who knows what he is doing. They do not necessarily charge more. You just have to find them. (Or teach them. Give them the info.)

Among other things, my left shoulder and hip hurt when I let my levels get low. Mentally and physically, I do much better now and appear to be continuing to improve in all areas, partly or mainly, due to having more youthful levels of testosterone now. My energy levels have increased significantly. I still have fatigue after even moderate exercise, but I have some theories on the problem; I believe it is due to liver damage, but that may be improving too.

My statin problems are/were too numerous for me to want to try to comment on them all right now. Many have gone away over the months or are not nearly as bad. Time alone may do that. Supplements have probably helped. There is no way for me to know for sure. The biggest single jump was getting my testosterone levels corrected.

Let me mention this: One of the major theories for aging and disease is a decline in important hormones -- which happens as we get older whether we accelerate the process with statin damage or not. Another theory is high cellular oxidation levels. Me and you (and everyone else on this forum) are counting on the first (i.e., hormones) being more real than the second (i.e., oxidative damage). Why? Because we have done significant damage on the oxidation scale already. We have torn up mitochondria that spew atypically high levels of oxidants (which we keep under control with CoQ10 supplementation which is one of the two major antioxidants that can actually get inside mitochondria and prevent more oxidative damage). And remember, from what we read, if it is to be believed, there has never been any proof that taking a lot of antioxidants increases life spans. But we, in particular, should probably still take them. I certainly do. (Women on this forum should also consider getting their hormone levels checked including for testosterone -- and don't even think about anything other than bio-identical hormones. If you watch "The Doctors" you would have seen a recent episode with "Dr. Phil's" wife, Robin McGraw. She can set you straight there. Search for her YouTube videos.)

While looking for the Amazon URL for Dr. Shippen's book, I found this one which I just ordered. It certainly is new enough. (Dr. Shippens is real good, but older.)

*http://www.amazon.com/Andropause-Mystery-Unraveling-Truths-Menopause/dp/0970706103/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242000678&sr=1-4

This is the one I want:

*http://www.amazon.com/Cardiovascular-Endocrinology-Pathways-Crossroads-Contemporary/dp/1588298507/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242000774&sr=1-11

I will get it maybe after finishing some of my other medical textbooks, if I get the time in the future. (It's 100 bucks.) I will be interested in seeing if I can confirm a finding I made on my own recently. I now believe the reason that HCG used by itself as a TRT therapy does not always yield the same good results (as has been reported by the major HRT doctors) as testosterone and HCG combined, is due to the action of that hormone on the thyroid gland. My TSH levels increased significantly in a trial indicating that the hormone was interacting with the thyroid gland (and giving lower T3 & T4 readings/levels); and we already know that the two molecules (i.e., TSH & HCG) are similar in structure. Using less HCG does not appear to cause this problem.

Other than what I have mentioned that I have experienced, note the following regarding testosterone and the heart from page 82 of Dr. Shippen's book. He writes the following:

"The following cardiovascular risk factors INCREASE as testosterone DECREASES:

* Cholesterol and tryglyceride levels go up

* Coronary artery and major artery dilation diminish

* Vasoconstriction and greater risk of cardiac events

* Rising blood pressure

* Increased insulin output, which leads to obesity, elevated blood pressure, adult diabetes, and increased cortisone output

* Increased central abdominal fat; increased waist/hip ratio

* Increased estrogen levels in men -- associated with higher stroke and heart attack rates

* Increased lipoprotein A

* Increased fibrinogen -- the basis of most blood clots (combined with a simultaneous drop in plasminogen, our natural clot buster

* Decreased human growth hormone (HGH) output, leading to a decline in energy, strength, stamina, and heart muscle mass and output

* Decreased energy and strength, causing decreased physical activity thereby leading to obesity -- the vicious cycle of the male menopause"

Biologist

[Biologist]

While I'm at it, I have an observation to make. In his book "Alzheimer's Solved", Henry Lorin may have hit on the reason statins actually do have at least minimal value to one particular demographic. Their only proven value (except for some people with cholesterol levels consistently over about 350) has been with men (but not women) who have previously had a heart attack.

On page 81 he writes;

"Research has shown that high cholesterol content in blood vessels results in decreased production of nitric oxide. Lower amounts of nitric oxide directly cause the blood vessels to remain in a condition of being unable to relax and dilate.

This relationship of cholesterol and nitric oxide is not limited to blood vessels that are afflicted with the plaques of atherosclerosis. Research has shown that those cells involved with nitric oxide production are sensitive to the amount of cholesterol in their cell membranes in all situations. High cholesterol content in the cell membrane means low nitric oxide production." -- Henry Lorin

Cholesterol lowers inflammation and inflammation appears to be the cause of heart disease. Statins lower cholesterol levels, which would be counterproductive except for the fact that they too lower inflammation. So it's about a draw (except for the side effects) as all the studies have shown when properly interpreted. However, is there ever a case where lowering cholesterol, for its own sake, is actually a benefit?

Yes. Men who have had a heart attack have proven themselves to be in the precise demographic that have all the necessarily criteria for dangerous clotting from their atherosclertotic plaques -- and this is the demographic which would benefit the most from widened coronary vessels. Lowered cholesterol means marginally wider coronary arteries due to increased nitric oxide activity. "Marginally" makes all the difference with this demographic.

The following excerpt, from a review of the book I cite above, may be relevant:

"Offering a wealth of information, "Cardiovascular Endocrinology: Shared Pathways and Clinical Crossroads" provides a range of insights, including a novel view of the hormonal regulation of the vascular system and the disruption of the nitric oxide signaling system. It also addresses the role of fatty acids and cytokines in the development of this problem. Importantly, this unique title also provides a state-of-the-art update on the importance of other hormones such as thyroid hormone and steroids, as well as the pathophysiology of cardiovascular disease and controversies surrounding the use of hormone replacement therapy."

Biologist

[uncle2blade]

Biologist,
Wow! That is a lot of info. Thanks, I will get the books. I will also take this information to my Doc. next week. I'll let you know what the feed back is from the doc.
Here are some numbers I forgot to mention Testosterone, serum 154 should be between 241-827, (DHEA) 542 My age between 82- 338
Thanks for taking so much of your time with me. I sincerely appreciate it.
Craig

[Allen1]

Hi there Biologist,

I wouldn't read too much into the demographic for any benefit as to people who have previously had a heart attack. It may sound good and maybe even look right, but here I am, just one of the people that this poison is meant to benefit, 14 years ago the heart attack, around 8 - 10 years of statins since the event, followed by a triple bypass and more statins etc. The amount of tests I had and the irregular/crazy heart beats and all the other problems that we have all endured has only complicated things all round. The doctors although many are starting to see the light now, were oblivious to any wrongdoing that their beloved statins were capable of, and many of them still are!

It is over 2 years since I stopped statins, my heartbeat has stabilised and I only get the odd palpitation now and then instead of it going crazy for no apparent reason which could not have been doing me any good whatsoever. Today I am still easily tired even to the point of exhaustion at having a shower some days, other days are not as bad but when I go shopping, well the next few days are taking up recovering from it.

I firmly believe that if I had not taken statins, that I would be alright now. The triple bypass would have probably still be a necessity but I really doubt if any of the problems that I have endured would have happened if statins were not used.

Unfortunately I worked for the biggest bunch of money grabbing winkers that you wouldn't trust to organise a drinking session in a brewery, so the heart attack was always on the cards with that lot of 2 faced (well you can guess the rest and maybe rephrase some of this sentence).

All the best,
Allen

[Brian C.]

Allen, if you still get heart rhythm abnormalities try magnesium orotate.


Brian.

[Allen1]

That is good sound advice Brian.

I try to take magnesium everyday and have done for a few years now and it really does help. Bananas are the other top item I found useful to combat leg cramps at night, it is just a shame that q10 and all the other things we know of now, were basically unheard of by many of us before all the damage took place and left us in the state we find ourselves in.

My lower back and right hip are hurting like hell today! I am really starting to wonder if things will ever get back to some sort of normality, it really is a case of "if its not one thing its another" since statin therapy :evil:

All the best
Allen :)

[Brian C.]

I'm also taking Potassium Magnesium Aspartate thrice daily.

Sorry to hear about your pains Allen, I am now blessedly pain-free - except for angina if I do anything physical or experience anxiety.

The CFS remains the Number One problem. It's quite ludicrous how little I can do these days


Brian.

[Allen1]

Hi there Brian,

I have no idea why the pains have returned, but this last week has seen many of the problems that had quietened down for months reappear with a vengeance and increased severity. I was looking forward to spending more time outdoors and maybe doing some walking to improve things as the weather is getting better, that is now put on hold as I am in agony at the moment.

The chances are that I will be ok-ish in a couple of days time if things continue the same way they used to, but you never know what will happen after being poisoned the way we have.

All the best
Allen :)

[Biologist]

Hi, Allen.

Well said.

If I ever had a heart attack, I would not take a statin afterwards. (And certainly not longterm or without CoQ10 even if I could be talked into it for a few days right after the heart attack). I think they are rediculous if not simply criminal, probably in all applications including during and immediately after a heart attack.

Here's what the science says regarding that one demographic:

"A sand blaster is a fast and effective way to remove ice from a car's windshield."

OK. No one would argue with that. They might add, however, that it's stupid as hell since it would damage or ruin the glass, and there are much better ways to go about it.

But, the fact remains: it will remove the ice.

Biologist

[Brian C.]

Excellent analogy to the practice of allotropic medicine, not just statinification Biologist. :D


Brian.

[Allen1]

Hi there Biologist,

well you sure can't argue with that sort of logic

All the best,
Allen

[Biologist]

I know that Dr. Sinatra, a cardiologist, sometimes still uses statins after a heart attack in some limited circumstances (per his 2007 book). He knows they are bad news and are very much over prescribed, but he also knows a lot more than me about available options (or the lack there of). So I will reserve judgment for now whether or not I believe they may have any place in medicine or not.

One of my biggest complaints with statins, which are the "personification" of the disproven Cholesterol Hypothesis, is the fact that tens of thousands of people have been given a "clean bill of health" after their silly cholesterol tests are done, only to drop dead of a preventable heart attack! This common outcome is rarely specifically discussed in the books I have read. But this fact is: At least half of people who have heart attacks have normal or low cholesterol levels.

It is not just people taking statins that are getting abused. The whole situation is shameful.

Biologist

[Biologist]

Craig, how much DHEA are you supplementing. I am currently doing 50 mg per day.

Thanks.

Biologist

[gotts1936]

I just finished reading spacedoc's new book " Statin Damage Crisis " for the second time. The glyconutrients chapter was very interesting. I researched glyconutrients on the internet and was amazed to discover that glyconutrients maybe the biggest revolutionary change in the war against disease and have been dubbed " the next multi-vitamin ".

I started taking eleven of the supplements this week and I am waiting for a shipment of glyconutrient gelcaps to arrive. I realize what is working for spacedoc may not work for me, but time will tell.

Is there anyone on this website who is taking all the twelve supplements?

Gotts

[uncle2blade]

Biologist,
I do not supplement with DHEA. The numbers I gave you were without supplements.
Craig

[epfleger]

Has anyone here done any research on glyconutrients? My research indicates that there is not an accepted definition of what sugars fall under the category of a glyconutrient. Nor could not find one credible source that scrutinized the science of glyconutrients.

Plus, it seems that the largest (and perhaps only) distributor of this stufff - a company called Mannatech - has some sort of ponzi scheme going. This supplements is very expensive to boot.

Any info?

[epfleger]

As a follow-up to my previous post, here's a good read on glyconutrients:

*http://www.raysahelian.com/glyconutrients.html

[gotts1936]

epfleger,
I got my info based on Feburary, 2003 MIT's Technology Review which said that glyconutients are one of the top 10 emerging technologies that will change the world. Also, M.D. News/June, 2002. I am still researching gylconutrients.
Gotts

[epfleger]

Thanks gotts. I'll keep poking around and post whatever I find.

[gotts1936]

epfleger,
My research tells me the 8 essential sugars are as follows:
Mannose.
Fucose.
Galactose.
Glucose.
N-Acetylgalactosamine.
N-Acetylglucosamine.
N-Acetylneuraminic.
Xylose.
All of these sugars can be obtained in a proper diet.
gotts